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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
MostWicked · 20/08/2014 18:37

Why am I posting links about consent? Because consent is what matters. This whole thread is about the problem that girls are being pushed into having anal sex. Girls are not standing up for themselves if they are giving in to pressure from boys, and boys are not listening to a girl's refusal. Neither are understanding consent.
There are posts from women on this thread who have given in to the pressure from their partner to have anal sex. Clearly even adults sometimes struggle with the understanding of consent.
I have used the first 2 videos to as an introduction to discuss the issue of consent with my sons. I do not EVER want them to push a girl into doing anything she doesn't want to do.

HolidayPackingIsHardWork · 20/08/2014 18:38

Well put noblegiraffe.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 18:40

"Girls are not standing up for themselves if they are giving in to pressure from boys, and boys are not listening to a girl's refusal. Neither are understanding consent."

This is extremely simplistic.

Don't you remember what it was like to be a teen?

Ok so you think we need to see some videos so that we understand consent better (!)
Why have you posted a video with instruction on how to have anal sex

Are you just sort of going "ooh look at me I know stuff" or something? Trying to prove some kind of credentials.

Your posts are really getting my back up MostWicked and I'm not sure why.

What do you think of the report in the OP.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 18:44

Seven everything I have posted has been about advocating for better education.
If we want to achieve that, we have to have open and frank discussions about the issues that are causing concern.
Consent would be number 1 on my list.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 18:45

What do you make of the report?

HolidayPackingIsHardWork · 20/08/2014 18:46

Consent doesn't happen in a vacuum. All people and especially teenagers are coerced into things. All people sometimes placate others. All people look for social markers about what is "normal" and try to conform.

Information that anal sex is risky, potentially painful, and not standard helps give kids cues that it is definitely ok to say no. It might help teenage boys who've seen a lot of porn to realise that it would be wrong to push a girl who is reticent.

This information being given would not do anything to stop experienced adults doing whatever they wanted to do privately and consensually.

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 18:47

But Most.... the article in the OP is all about girls being coerced and feeling powerless to stop their male partners penetrating them anally, and the young men saying that they basically couldn't care less that they are hurting their partners by doing it.

It's nothing to do with consent, it's about male violence.

I'm glad you enjoy anal sex. And?

Darkesteyes · 20/08/2014 18:53

THIS is how bad it has got Just saw this screen shot in my Twitter feed. A debate in Bella magazine about 9 year olds and bikini waxes. My last piece of faith in human nature just died.

twitter.com/

Darkesteyes · 20/08/2014 18:55

Sorry It just wont link but the screen shot is on Twitter .

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 18:58

Here

Darkesteyes · 20/08/2014 19:01

Thanks Capt.. I do follow Vagenda but first saw it in someone elses tweet.

Unbelievable. Sad

PacificDogwood · 20/08/2014 19:23

Goodness me, this is NOT about whether an individual woman enjoys whatever sexual practice - it is about the coercion of young girls in to a sexual act which carries additional risks (all sex is risky; more so to woman than to men), often during their first sexual experience.

What on earth that has to do with anybody's sexual preferences on this thread, I don't know.

Btw, saw a lad today with a torn penile frenulum from anal intercourse (with his longstanding male partner - I presume they both knew what they were doing and still there was a problem). Just sayin'.

I used to worry about early sexualisation of children; more and more I am petrified of the early pornification of childhood. Bikini waxes for pre-pubescent girls - FFS Sad
All this going on while Yewtree is in full swing and more and more comes to light about powerful and prominent people having associations with organised sexual abuse of children.

I really sometimes wish I did not know about this stuff and remained in blessed ignorance.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 19:34

The report is a horrifying reflection on many young people's understanding of consent.
Girls need to be taught that they can and should say no to anything that they don't want to do, and that it doesn't make them uncool. If a boy doesn't accept that, then HE is in the wrong. Equally they need to know that wanting to have sex and enjoying it, isn't wrong either.
Boys need to be taught what consent is, what it looks like, how to get it and how not to go about it. Alcohol, drugs or pressure are never acceptable methods to gain consent and everyone has the right to set their own limits on a minute by minute basis.

It's nothing to do with consent, it's about male violence.
I don't see how you can say that it's nothing to do with consent. These boys are failing to gain consent. Some don't seem to think that it matters. We must teach them that consent is everything. Without consent, you are not having sex, you are committing rape.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 19:38

Reducing this to the issue of consent puts all the responsibility on young women as to whether they do this or not. If the message is "it's all okay so long as you're into it" plus the third-wavey "I love anal sex, me, I'm cool with it" then how are young women supposed to say "I'm not okay with this". IMO prude-shaming is a much bigger issue in our society than so-called "slut shaming". Too much emphasis is on telling girls it's okay to say yes to what men want and not enough on telling both young women and young men that women's sexuality matters, that sex should be mutually pleasurable and that pushing your boundaries (i.e. having someone else push your boundaries) is not admirable and certainly not feminist. I agree with the PP who said it would give young women armour to talk about the health and injury risks of anal sex and to reinforce a message that this is absolutely not something that should be expected in a sexual relationship.

HolidayPackingIsHardWork · 20/08/2014 19:45

YY FloraFox, consent sounds good, but alone it puts all the onus on the girl. And yy prude shaming seems to be as big a problem, if not a bigger problem than slut shaming.

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 20/08/2014 19:45

My very early experiences of it were not great, but nor were my early experiences of vaginal sex.

I don' think anyone here would argue that you have to do vaginal sex either. But when you say "Not that great" do you mean painful? Because if you do mean painful, it is worth wondering why women feel they need to keep trying painful sex acts until they enjoy it. Vaginal or anal. That's a shit version of consent if you ask me.

If it hurts, you're probably doing it wrong. If it causes damage, you are definitely doing it wrong.

There is no doing it right, it is an out hole. That's a fact. No reason why two consenting adults can't do it, but let's not pretend that there can be no potential issues with sticking something the size of a penis up an out hole if you are "doing it right". And sorry but people saying you just need more lube, make me cringe. It's like that god awful numbing throat spray someone linked to before. If something doesn't feel good don't tell me all the ways you can make it acceptable. It should be amazing or what's the point?

HolidayPackingIsHardWork · 20/08/2014 19:48

Thanks WhatWitchCraft, I am going to remember this point when I talk to my daughters. It's so obvious, but so easy to miss in all the malarky.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 19:58

Reducing this to the issue of consent puts all the responsibility on young women as to whether they do this or not.
It absolutely does not! I think we should be educating boys on this as much if not more than girls.

IMO prude-shaming is a much bigger issue in our society than so-called "slut shaming".
How about no shaming whatsoever? How does shaming anyone help the problem?
I should be able to say 'I enjoy anal sex' without being told that I am pressuring young girls into doing it.
Women should be able to say 'I don't want to do that' without worrying what anyone else thinks of their decision and without the need to justify their decision with a risk assessment.
There isn't anything, that should be 'expected' in a sexual relationship. The boundaries can only ever be defined by the 2 people involved.

Oblomov · 20/08/2014 20:00

I find this so depressing. I
Have no idea if this norm can be reversed. I doubt it.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 20:06

Has anyone said that you are pressuring young girls to doing it Confused

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 20:22

when you say "Not that great" do you mean painful?
I mean clumsy and awkward. I didn't know what I was doing, he didn't know either. He wasn't pushy, he had never pressured me, it was completely consensual, we had talked about it quite a few times. Not particularly painful but not pleasurable either, just inexperienced fumblings. When we got more comfortable and confident, then the pleasure increased. You need to experiment with things you like the idea of, to find out what works and what doesn't.

There is no doing it right, it is an out hole.
So are you just suggesting that we tell our teens, don't do it? Or it's only ok when you are in your 20s? If they are expecting it to hurt and that doesn't stop them, what are we supposed to tell them? Vaginal sex carries risks, anal sex carries a slightly higher risk - that's not going to put them off doing it.

Anyone saying, 'you just need more lube', hasn't got a clue what they are talking about and any kind of numbing spray is a hideously bad idea. It's those kinds of gems of advice, that people find when there is a lack of good information available. I completely agree that 'acceptable' is never an appropriate benchmark for any sexual activity. Mutual pleasure should always be the aim and that can never happen without consent.

If teens continue to get their sex education from porn, then this will continue to be a problem, because porn misses out all of the important bits and it gives a false impression about sex. Banning porn isn't the solution, good information to counteract the bad information and fill in the important missing bits, is the only way to protect our teens from hurting themselves and each other.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 20:27

Seven
Has anyone said that you are pressuring young girls to doing it

FloraFox
If the message is "it's all okay so long as you're into it" plus the third-wavey "I love anal sex, me, I'm cool with it" then how are young women supposed to say "I'm not okay with this"

So if I say I like it, it makes it impossible for young women to say no.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 20:31

Saying you like it is not pressuring young girls into doing it. This is:

If it hurts, you're probably doing it wrong. If it causes damage, you are definitely doing it wrong.

Consent is passive. It puts girls as the gate-keepers. The yay or nay sayers. As soon as there is a "yes" or an "oh alright then" or the absence of a "no" that's the end of it. No consideration of either the context that leads to the "consent" and the expectations of girls and what they should be doing. No consideration of whether the activity is harmful in itself. I agree with Whatwitch - it's an exit, does not lubricate and there's no prostate for women. What's wrong with telling young women and men that 99.9% of women will hate this and men shouldn't ask for it. Young men should be told that the very act of asking for it makes them boundary violators and borderline, if not actual, rapists.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 20:33

Why is banning porn not the solution?

AnyFucker · 20/08/2014 20:37

Anyone else put off posting on this thread because they are fed up of reading "MostWicked's adventures with anal sex" ?

I'm out before I even started.

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