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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
MostWicked · 20/08/2014 21:33

It's not the boys ending up in hospital. The onus should be on them to stop hurting girls.
Which is exactly what I have been saying, we need to teach them to stop pressurising girls into doing things they don't want to do.

Plus consent is contextual. You have to understand what you are consenting to and the risks. Just like other sexual activities.
Which requires education. At the moment they are giving in to doing sex acts they don't want to do and don't understand.

Anyone who thinks exposing young children to copious amounts of porn doesn't affect them is nuts, quite frankly.
I don't think anyone has promoted porn to adults, let alone children.
It doesn't stop them seeing it though, so we have to help them understand what they might see.

And of course the blokes are often getting consent, after a fashion. They are going on about it until she says yes, telling her that everyone else is doing it and they like it so why not, that they are boring if they don't give it a try, why not etc etc etc
Which is absolutely not ever consent - that is the message that needs to be given loud and clear, to all boys as they grown into young men. When they learn, that going on about it until she gives in, or using emotional blackmail (if you loved me you would), or peer pressure (all the other girls do) or ANY other type of coercion, including alcohol or drugs, IS NOT CONSENT, then we might see a reduction in this type of behaviour.
If she is not saying YES YES YES, then the answer is no, you do not have her consent.

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 20/08/2014 21:33

99.9% of women will hate it, you know that for a fact do you?

Facts are funny things really. Like you think it is a fact that anal sex "done right" won't hurt. I wouldn't say it was fact that any kind of sex won't hurt but I especially think it is not a fact there is a correct way to use a bodily orifice that billions of years of evolution created for the removal of bodily waste as a penis receptacle.

You might as well say punching someone in the face done right doesn't hurt.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:35

Oh I forgot about earlier, when I pointed out that it isn't boys who are being encouraged, persuaded and coerced into engaging in potentially riskier / painful sexual practices in het relationships, even though clearly there is the possibility they might enjoy it.

The answer was: "There very much is. Pegging is becoming very popular among many men." Really? We are talking about 16-18yo here. Do you have evidence that the incidence of pegging in het relationships in 16-18 yo is massively on the increase? That boys are being coerced by girls into performing these acts? Or are you taking the fact that some sexually mature adults enjoy this stuff (and let's face it sticking things up bloke's arses is hardly newfangled, and with good reason) and extrapolating that to Oh Well everyone who's anyone is at is so that's great.

Would be very interested to see the report equivalent to the one in the OP that boys are being put in that position by girls wielding dildos and strap-ons.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 20/08/2014 21:38

Yes Seven, its funny that - despite its apparent popularity (according to Mostwicked) that particular practice is hardly part of mainstream discourse.

In fact, you hardly ever hear about young women talking about ripping their boyfriends a new arsehole, coercing them, wearing them down, persuading them to try it, getting them to 'overcome their resistance', using it to signify their conquest, etc, etc, do you? I wonder why.

Iggly · 20/08/2014 21:39

This is exactly why something has to be done to make it harder for people to access porn via the internet. It is far too easy. Far too easy.

If people want porn online they need to opt in. Mobile phone companies can restrict access to open over the data network but for some reason can't or won't over WiFi. Maybe that's for the internet providers to do. In which case they should.

Adults should be teaching children about consent be it parents or teachers etc.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:41

At least 4 of your recent posts have talked a lot about ongoing continuos consent, enthusiastic yesses all the way through and so on.

eg "If she is not saying YES YES YES, then the answer is no"

I think you have a rather simplistic take on consent as well TBH. In the context of an early or casual encounter, this may well be a reasonable message, ish. In the context of a longer term relationship, or one with different parameters, that may not be true at all.

Also "YES YES YES" have you been watching when harry met sally again? Most men are really not that good in bed.

I think you need to refine your ideas a bit quite frankly.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 21:45

Where have I suggested that all women should do anal sex, or all should enjoy it? I don't care what other women choose to do as long as the decision is their free choice. I am the one being told that my free choice is part of the problem.
So if I just keep quiet and pretend not to like it, I somehow support young women better?

We just tell our teens, just don't do it, it's a really bad idea, it will hurt, you won't like it, it could do you damage. Boys shouldn't ask, girls should always say no. I know that lots of gay men enjoy it, but girls really don't, so just don't do it.
Problem solved.

PuppyMouse · 20/08/2014 21:48

Interested to read this thread.
When I was 17/18 I started seeing a guy I was at school with. He wanted to have sex. I was a virgin and petrified. I let him try it once and I was so scared and tense he couldn't get it in properly (tmi sorry). I was sobbing and in pain but wanted to please him. So next time he said "well if it won't work that way I'll try this".... Turned me over and anally raped me.
The horrendous thing for me was I was so relieved to find something that he enjoyed that we could do and mean I didn't have to panic about normal sex for a while, I let him do it a number of times. I didn't understand at the time how abnormal this was. He used to spit on me and pull my hair until it came out in his hands during.

I still have flashbacks. I've had counselling. It has to be the most shameful thing that's ever happened to me and my poor husband still has to cuddle me while I cry during sex sometimes - I now tend to associate it with pain and violence.

My point is... What is consent? I thought I was "doing the right thing" by not showing him the door straight away. I tried telling my parents but neither knew what to do. I think they thought if they banned me from seeing him I'd want to see him more.

As a mum of a daughter now I am going to do everything within my power to educate her about all aspects of sex and relationships but also try to raise her to understand she can say no. To anyone. At any time. And that some attention from a guy is not always better than no attention. As women we aren't put on this earth to "please men" and that whatever goes on in the bedroom is borne of respect and should be what both parties want and enjoy.

Sorry way tmi and bit personal but as someone who was in this exact situ I felt I wanted to get that off my chest. FWIW I think Wicked has a point and for some women this is enjoyable and something they themselves might instigate but for me has affected me ever since.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 21:48

mostwicked everything you say is exactly the problem with third wave "sex pozzy" "feminism". It's all about "don't tell me what to do", "who are you to tell me what to do". Meanwhile young women as a class are being pressured from young men as a class to do things they don't want to do. Your solutions are focussed on individuals and you are ignoring the context of how this is occurring. You seem more exercised about the idea that we should tell young people that anal sex is a bad idea than about the environment of porn, male entitlement and male violence that is leading to young women being coerced into something very few of them hate. Hmm

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 21:48

Shit, very few of them like.

FairPhyllis · 20/08/2014 21:50

I haven't commented on this so far because I have been too utterly depressed by reading the report.

The fact that boys expect girls to be hurt by anal sex and then do it anyway says something unbelievably disturbing about how a generation of boys are growing up seeing girls as non-people.

I am also very concerned about how this may be contributing to eroticising violence against women for young men.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 21:51

Puppymouse I'm sorry you went through that. I hope my cross-post wasn't insensitive.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 20/08/2014 21:52

Its not about the report, silly, the important thing is to discuss Mostwicked's preferences.

PacificDogwood · 20/08/2014 21:53

Puppymouse Thanks

Its not about the report, silly, the important thing is to discuss Mostwicked's preferences.
Yes, this is getting a bit… tedious.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 21:53

So Seven, do you not think that ongoing continuous consent is important then?

I agree that what that consent looks like may change over time in a relationship, as a couple learn to recognise each other's body language, but for me, continuous consent is vital.

I said YES YES YES, as a way of clearly demonstrating the difference between a non-consensual 'yes, ok then' and an active, clear, unambiguous consensual yes, that boys should be told is required for there to be consent.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:55

Huh?

So are you saying that you want schools to specifically give instruction to children about how to have anal sex and make it less likely to hurt them?

What other sex acts are you going to give out manuals for?

Surely the lesson should be with anything to do with sex, be respectful, be careful, if you both like it fine, if you don't both like it not fine. That would cover it off surely? And then talk about STDs and pregnancy and bits in / on people's bodies that can feel nice. Or something. That was pretty much on the fly.

The list of sex acts that are a bit tricky that young people might want to engage in is endless I am not sure that instructions are the way forward. Surely if they want to try something safely there is an age appropriate net resource they can look it up in? Schools could point to that. In my day we went and read the joy of sex in the bookshop when no-one was looking Grin

PuppyMouse · 20/08/2014 21:55

Not at all Florafox I'm not easily offended over this.

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 21:57

Puppymouse I am so sorry that happened to you.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:58

Not in the sense of females going "YES YES YES" MostWicked. That is a simplistic idea of what continuous consent looks like, to say the least.

PacificDogwood · 20/08/2014 22:00

Happy, enthusiastic, exploring teenagers will soon figure out how they can do what to give and receive pleasure - they do not need instructions manuals as much as educations about self-respect, self-esteem, boundaries (that's for the boys, to not allow themselves by peer pressure being manipulated in to something they may not chose to do off their own volition), respect of others.
Anybody can google 'anal sex' and find instruction - that is NOT what the adults in young people's lives need to teach. Answer questions (if they come - I'd've died before asking either one of my parents about anal sex and I had a good relationship with them with competent and non-embarrassed chats about how human bodies work) and encourage them to look after each other. The rest will follow.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 22:00

So if you teach that to children it is clearly so unrealistic that they will not listen to you.

Puppymouse I am so sorry what he did to you. This thread and the report must be an awful read.

Pulling hair is also a thing from porn isn't it.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 22:01

Fine, I will leave you all to it, to work out all the answers for yourselves.
I'll pop back in tomorrow to see if anyone has come up with any ideas at all, about what we can say to our teenagers, or steps that we can take that will actually make a difference. I suspect there will be page after page about how it is society's fault with not a single tangible solution in sight.
Good night

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 22:03

yes because us 10 or so people on this thread have the collective power to change centuries of patriarchy, take on the multi-billion dollar porn industry etc etc etc

So far the suggestions have been better / more education in schools from a younger age and making porn opt-in. There may have been some others.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 22:05

Oh shit no I got that wrong

So far the suggestions are:

Ban Porn
Tell women who have sex they are disgusting
Tell children lies about sex in order to put them off because that is bound to work

I think that was it

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 20/08/2014 22:08

I know that lots of gay men enjoy it, but girls really don't, so just don't do it.

It really doesn't matter what gay men do because we aren't men. Confused I haven't got a gspot in my ass. And it isn't teenage boys that are being discussed here it is women as usual who are being pressured to be any port in a storm for any fucker with a cock

In the Journal of Sexual Medicine, researchers from Indiana University and George Mason University surveyed nearly 25,000 gay and bisexual men in an effort to better understand how they experience sex. The study hopes to combat "the almost exclusive focus" on HIV in most academic research on gay male sexual behavior, as well as to increase understanding of the "diversity and complexity of these men’s sexual lives." To do that, they asked gay and bisexual-identified men ages 18 to 87 to chart their most recent sexual experience. Did it involve kissing, cuddling, masturbation, oral sex, anal sex? Did it happen with a boyfriend, spouse, stranger, or sex worker? Was it in a car, a home, a club? Were condoms used?

The results: Despite the popular perception, "sexual behaviors involving the anus were least common," researchers found. Around 75 percent of participants reported kissing their partners, giving oral sex, and/or receiving oral sex in their most recent sexual encounters. By contrast, only 36 percent of men reporting receiving anal sex and 34 percent of men reporting giving it. Half of participants who engaged in anal sex employed a condom. The most common series of activities in the encounter—reported by 16 percent of men—involved "holding their partner romantically, kissing partner on mouth, solo masturbation, masturbating partner, masturbation by partner, and genital–genital contact."