Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

[noblegiraffe]

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

thanks JustThe, missed that one.

I will rephrase to "practically no-one on the thread has said this".

This www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/aug/20/teenagers-internet-pornography-damaging-poll?CMP=twt_gu is hopeful.

As usual, avert gaze from BTL.

Is this only new behaviours because it involves anal?

Are we saying that teenage boys are no longer what theyve always been to girls which is annoying, awkward and pathetically grateful for any sort of sexual attention, yet trying it on clumsily all the same.

That is what the report seems to be saying, and what teenage girls are reporting to people on the thread who work with them, yes.

And the reason that anal is problematical is because it has a high risk of STD transmission, a high risk of getting it "wrong" given that it requires certain, um, preludes if there is not going to be pain or injury. Hospitals are seeing an increase in girls with injuries due to anal sex. The boys and girls in the report both expect it to be painful for her.

I don't like the phrase "new sex craze" either. It seems very dismissive.

Different sex acts carry different degrees of risk to one/both participants, different levels of expertise to get right, and so on.

If the "new sex craze" was for girls to lick boys ears then people wouldn't be getting upset.

I also note that the risk of harm invariable seems to weight more heavily on the female. The latest "sex craze" is not the other way around, for girls to penetrate boys with things, even though penetration with an object made for the purpose is likely to be safer than penetration with a penis, and males certainly can and do gain pleasure from penetration. Strange then, that it's always the other way around, isn't it. Could it be anything to do with the fact that some acts are presented as standard in mainstream porn while others are not.

In an ideal world people would be able to find out what they like through consensual experimentation. Rather than being told what they ought to be doing to other people or having done to them.

Yy seven.

branleuse this is a typically third wave approach - all about the individual and no consideration of the situation for women as a class. The report makes it clear that young women are being pressured and coerced into sexual activity they don't enjoy, even being anally raped. At what point, in third wave analysis, does this become something that we need to be concerned as feminists at a societal level rather than telling young women everything is okay so long as they, individually, on their own consent?

I don't see "pathetically grateful" or "trying it on clumsily" in this report and I think that's a staggeringly dismissive attitude. What I see is entitlement, coercion and lack of concern for the woman's sexual experience. And rape.

Years ago I read an interview with the founder of one of the lads' mags - maybe Loaded, it was before the avalanche of Nuts and Zoo et al. He said they were always keen to book one particular model - Abi something, she went out with John Leslie - because she would do the all-fours poses that other models wouldn't because it was too degrading. That kind of pose is de rigeur in music videos now. Somewhere along the line women seem to have traded in that kind of self respect for an enthusiasm to demonstrate that they're up for anything.

I'm a secondary school teacher and a mother of boys. I worry a lot about what the younger generations are viewing as normal. Young women are also very influenced by female anti-feminism rhetoric and don't want to identify as feminists. It's a poisonous mix. Schools certainly could and should play a role in education of boys and girls around consent and I think the pornography industry could as well but obviously their interest is in what sells so they have no motivation to take responsibility.

The way teenage boys talk about girls and sex is monstrous. I hear it a lot. We have to deal with the consequences in school of kids exchanging photos and explicit messages and we can see the hideousness of the culture around sex at the moment. It's by no means all boys all the time but a lot of shocking material is becoming completely normalised.

jeez there's 'trying it on clumsily' and 'trying it on so clumsily she ends up requiring medical treatment'

Also when it comes to anal "trying it on clumsily" is going to fucking hurt. So actually that's not OK anyway is it.

If boys are going to insist on this then someone needs to tell them how to do it properly. Guess what though porn doesn't show that does it, they tend to just shove it in (and the women often look extremely uncomfortable).

Porn is not advocating or teaching consensual mutually pleasurable sex, it is showing men doing stuff to women. I don't think we should be surprised when that behaviour is replicated. Why doesn't porn show mutually pleasurable sex? (Het porn anyway). Well the answer to that one is just not going to be good is it. And of course then young people learn "this is how you do sex" and the whole thing just feeds on itself.

I was a teenager in the 80s, and the fear of aids meant that anal sex really wasn't on the agenda. Now I'm with a new partner and I will just say I've been pleasantly suprised by the experience (no pain if you prepare well, lube is essential). However I'm not happy about how 'in your face' it is on any mainstream porn website, presented as a more violent, rougher choice than 'regular' intercourse, and this is reflected in the report.

Sorry haven't RTFT, but the OP is just so depressing. Unsurprising but fully fucking depressing. I have years to wait but I hope to whatever deity I can hope to that dd turns out to be a lesbian.

I'm not sure if it is true but I heard Stephen Fry say that on that program about gay men that most gay men don't mostly engage in anal sex. I thought it was fucking shocking. Men whose bodies actually find receiving anal sex pleasurable and can make them orgasm... DON'T choose to do it but it's just assumed that women do now. Despite you know getting fuck all out of it other than a bleeding rectum.

I have read the whol thread... I am checking in trying to learn ways to approach these issues with DD.

The posts from PacificDogwood were very helpful.

I was a teenager in the late 70's to early 80's. Noone pressured me to do it then.

I recall chatting with one woman who told me that she had just finished with her boyfriend of Turkish origin because he always wanted to do it anal, but she found there was nothing in it for her, so she finished it.

If there is an increase in the practice then down the line we can expect to see increases in STIs, anal fissures, faecal incontinence and haemorrhoids.
Still, whatever floats your boat…..

Interesting how the posters on here who say they enjoy it, don't seem to mention whether their partners enjoy having it done to them despite them being the sex that has a prostate gland that can be stimulated by anal sex. Is it only women whose every orifice is there for men to expect to use as a right?

Anal does change the dynamics of sex from something mutually enjoyable to something a man (because it does seem to be a het thing, not something lesbians have embraced) does to a woman.
Entirely based on your assumption that a woman cannot gain pleasure from anal sex. I do genuinely enjoy it. There are times I crave it. It is not something we would do if I didn't enjoy it.
I fully accept that not all women do. My very early experiences of it were not great, but nor were my early experiences of vaginal sex. That was to do with a lack of experience and knowing what we were doing.

There doesn't seem to be a reversal, like women using dildos on men's anuses.
There very much is. Pegging is becoming very popular among many men.

It's pornification and rapey. Why would a woman consent to something that she will get no sexual pleasure from and could cause her damage unless there was some form of coercion?
This is where I find it very annoying. There is nothing "rapey" (vile word) about a mutually consensual act. A woman might consent to it because she wants to. For me it followed on from the pleasure I had experienced from anal play. You have no right to claim that I get no sexual pleasure from it.
It will only cause damage if there is coercion or a lack of communication. If done properly, it does not cause damage. There are not thousands of incontinent gay men!

If we can burst the bubble of porn being held up as a sex manual whilst trying to empower teenage girls to choose their own sex lives when they are ready and not bow down to peer pressure, then we are halfway there.
Exactly this. People need to find their own pleasures and learn to enjoy them without guilt. They need to learn the self respect needed to say, 'no I don't want to do that' or 'I really want to try this'. They need to learn to ask each other 'how does this feel?' and 'would you like to try this?' And most of al, they need to learn to listen to the answer!!

There is a lack of good information available about consent and how to have good safe sex, including how to have anal sex. Girls are getting injured because they try it, when neither partner has the first clue how to do it properly. If there has been any element of coercion, then by definition, the communication will be inadequate. The porn manual, misses lots of important details so these teens are going to get it wrong. It doesn't help if we just tell them not to do it, we need to teach them what consent is and what it looks like. There's a couple of good youtube videos that are worth a watch.

There is also still an issue with the perception of a woman who enjoys anything more than 'normal' sex, is somehow degrading herself. If she is consenting (and fully able to consent), she is not being degraded.

If there is an increase in the practice then down the line we can expect to see increases in STIs, anal fissures, faecal incontinence and haemorrhoids.
STIs are a slightly higher risk, but condoms can make a huge difference there.
The rest mostly scare stories. Anal sex does not cause incontinence.
If it is done properly, it causes no pain, no discomfort and no damage.
Just like if a woman posted to say that she found vaginal sex painful, posters would be checking that she was getting adequate foreplay and lubrication, anal sex requires the same consideration. If it hurts, you're probably doing it wrong. If it causes damage, you are definitely doing it wrong.

Umm, so how do you intellectually arm an awkward, insecure 16 year old girl in the face of all this pressure? A few intellectual gems about consent? Please!

I am busy trying to think of suggestions of things my daughters can say to "would be suitors" who are pushing this. Something cutting, witty and humiliating for the lad. I am not too concerned about political correctness in this case either. The situation is dire, personal and immediate. It needs to be effective. It needs to give her armour.

MostWicked the report is on 16-18 year olds.

A lot of your post reads as if it is about a much older & more experienced age group.

Laci Green has quite a few videos on the subject of sex that are really worth a watch.

"Girls are getting injured because they try it"

Trying anal sex is not something that is being driven by the girls in the report.

I find that wording intresting.

And why this ongoing assertion that people on this thread who have read the linked report and said "Jesus Christ that's horrendous" are saying this sort of thing "There is also still an issue with the perception of a woman who enjoys anything more than 'normal' sex, is somehow degrading herself. If she is consenting (and fully able to consent), she is not being degraded.". I don't get that from this thread at all. What I get is a bunch of people who are horrified by what is in the report, not a bunch of mean prudes saying seually mature women are disgusting if they like it up the arse FGS.

I find it depressing that some people are trying to set up a "them and us" dynamic on this thread implying that people who are upset by this report are some kind of meany old prudes who don't remember what it's like to be a teenager. I don't understand how anyone could read the link in the OP and want to take that stance

Why are you posting links about consent and how to have anal sex?

I am sure that on the feminism board of all places most of us are very aware of consent issues and would hazard a guess further that as grown women who are on MN on Fridays most of us would have a clue about how to go about anal intercourse and who knows maybe some of us do it ourselves.

How utterly bizarre. do you think we are all 90 and living in 1822 or something?

A lot of your post reads as if it is about a much older & more experienced age group.
If they are old enough to be sexually active, we need to ensure that they have access to the information they need to keep them safe.
The alternative is that we bury our heads in the sand and tell them not to do it, or tell them loads of scare stories in the hope that will put them off trying - that's rarely a good approach.
And the whole issue about anal sex, is the same as with ANY sexual activity. It's all about consent. That is what we need to teach.

Whether any of you enjoy anal sex is completely irrelevant to the fact that the report shows a significant proportion of teenaged girls are being forced into anal sex that they don't want.

Surely everyone agrees that's a bad thing?

Who is telling people scare stories?

I haven't seen anyone advocate telling children "scare stories" I have seen people call for better and more education, various concerns raised about porn and a general sense of "what can we do". I haven't seen anyone advocating that we tell children "scare stories" in the hope it puts them off what on earth? And thinking about it, that wouldn't help anyone, as according to the report it's the boys that need putting off not the girls.

I find it horrifying as well that there is no room given for what I would consider a standard sexual career - starting off with the more innocent acts and progressing with a partner or partners onto more involved & risky things over time. No apparently as soon as a girl is sexually active she needs to be ready to deal with and know how to perform any and all sexual requests made of her. Of course some people will go straight onto more tricky stuff and some people will never be interested but in general most people have a bit of a gap between first kiss and being fucked up the arse with no prep. Maybe that's just me though. Maybe I'm old fashioned.