Feminist Pub VII - Chat, questions, random thoughts too small for a thread ...

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just setting this up while we finish off the last few posts on the old thread. Come in and pull up a bar stool!

Honestly? If my brother said things like that in front of me or my children? I'd cut him out. Same as your mother saying racist things, it's not fair on your husband if you let him listen to that sort of thing either...and as it's your mother it's your job to sort her out I think.

Do you like your brother?

I grew up with DV and violence from my mother as well. I actually did let my kids see my parents (when we lived near by) but it was always on my terms. They never had unsupervised contact, if dad made a dodgy racist or sexist joke I'd call him out and shut him up quickly as he knew I'd go no contact and he'd not see grandkids. My mother isn't racist at all, but would come out with horrible, girls are like this boys are like this... and objectifying my daughter by talking about her looks all the time but I really put mmy foot down and called her on it every time and said I would go NC if she didn't stop and I meant it.

Having family is important to children but if your daughters are learning form someone that they love that they aren't important you owe it to them to not let them be exposed.

Sorry if that is harsh. I'm not unsympathetic I put up with my parents so my children can have family despite previously being NC but it has to be on your terms not theirs.

I think family has great importance and influence over children. That's why I would go with rffu's approach. Apart from anything it shows the children that you don't have to agree with everyone. Even people you love.

I hardly see my brother, only at family gatherings, because I just can't be bothered with his misogyny any more. I have a very small family and I am close to my mum, but life is too short to have to debried every time I see my brother.

Why when sexism is there staring you in the face can people make excuses or dumb explanations for it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2096885-to-ask-if-you-treat-your-sons-and-daughters-equally-and-if-not-why-not?msgid=47444325

And the posters pretending they don't even understand the question..because they all treat their children as individuals.... god it's infuriating.

your daily squee

God, was just steeling myself for DS/DD thread. Came here first to remember there is a sane corner...

I have some family issues, but I cleared them up with a series of massive rows. Basically everyone knows that they won't get to see my two if they make sexist etc. remarks. It was pretty unpleasant as an experience, my MiL has a line in gaslighting, and my parents variously threatened to divorce one another/ disown me. The upside is that everyone is clear and I really feel I've done the right thing by my children. The downside is, I'll never be accepted as reasonable or just, they are playing along because they are afraid and not because they believe in my perspective or even my intentions. I have to try and remember that they are defending their own life choices and self-serving narratives and in that sense, it's not personal. When I do manage to remember that I feel.compassion for them. It's not that often though, I'm mainly enraged

Okay, might look at that thread now,.channel.some.of that rage...

The old chestnut of 'emasculating boys' again, and turning girls into men.... Yep, because girls grow actual penises if they play with meccano and boys penises actually fall off if they play with irons.

What they can never explain to me is, if a boy wants to play with a doll... why do we think boys aren't supposed to play with dolls? If you have to actively socialize a child to a certain gender stereotype surely it is a false one? Right?

Boys play with dolls all the time anyway... action man anyone? No, it's just female bodied dolls they don't like. Gender is socialised anyway, and seems pretty fluid between generations. My DGF wore dresses until he was 'breeched', we have photos of him and his sisters where they are wearing identical outfits, and, unless anyone is suggesting that men of my grandfather's generation had their dicks fall off because of it, then why are we all here?

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Both my DS's had access to whatever toys took their fancy, we would use a toy library and they chose what they wanted, be that Legos or a dolls house, they have still grown up to be individuals with different personalities and different talents. Treating your children the same, no matter what the contents of their underwear doesn't make them into cookie cutter people ffs!

People talking in a concerned way about emasculation in the context that certain childhood practices cause masculinity or femininity, while arguing that masculinity or femininity is part of the natural order. Actually bonkers.

outself " I have to try and remember that they are defending their own life choices and self-serving narratives and in that sense, it's not personal."

This is is such a great approach.

Recently I found myself almost laughing at how totally my mother is consumed in her own narrative that makes her ok no matter what. we had a series of emails that would have been upsetting years ago when it was all rawer, when I needed her. This time it was kind of almost pretty funny but - this is weird - oddly reassuring. Because it was simple for me to just give up and say "I am not a paranoid weirdo surrounded by love and support I am insanely refusing to access." It felt better because my mum looks, to the external world, like the uber-mum, but actually she is pretty much useless to me because our realities conflict so much, and she is so so solid in the "la la lala la la la can't hear you" that keeps her so much in her own she can't even really hear me.

Capt Chaos – I am sure those photos of your grandfather are lovely. Of course dressing your children in that way has the distinct disadvantage, from the perspective of capitalism, that unless you have twins, you only ever need one set of small-child-clothes for your children to pass down.

Anyone seen LRD? Is she ok?

Good morning.

Have not seen LRD. Hope she's OK.

Did have a quick look at the DD/DS thread but ran away when people started to quarrel about "the same" and "equal". My DSs don't play with dolls as such but they have an entire universe of soft toys. I've had to raid the pound shop recently for more boxes to put them in.

mab Of course dressing your children in that way has the distinct disadvantage, from the perspective of capitalism, that unless you have twins, you only ever need one set of small-child-clothes for your children to pass down.

Diddums for capitalism

LRD! Where are you?

Hope you're ok

Sorry!

Yes, I am absolutely fine, thanks.

Meanwhile, from the world at large:

I am unreasonably disturbed by the episode of Louie in which he follows some really sharp and funny pro-feminist stand-up (and some even more Louie-sympa story lines than usual) with an attempted rape on his friend, directed and blocked to be as scary and threatening as possible, ending with him intimidating her into submitting to a kiss, which is followed by a fist-pump of celebration. I mean, unreasonably disturbed. I feel like it happened to me.

The Irish babies in the septic tank. What is the deal with Irish people? How have they convinced the world they are warm-hearted fun leprechauns? (my family are Irish)

That episode of Louie sounds horrible Queenmab. I don't know Louie, what is it? It's very possible that at some point in your life someone has taken a conquering approach to your queenlyness. Does it sound familiar?

Right, people, two questions:

STEVE BIDDULPH because of the equal DD/DS thread, I've done a quick search and am reading the webchat.

1. Where is StewieGriffinsMom? A rl fem friend in recommending the fem boards on MN commended her. But I haven't seen her anywhere except in repeated message withdrawn messages on the Steve Biddulph webchat. My rl fem friend is a hard sell so I'm pretty sure SGM was brilliant. Where did she go? And why has she withdrawn all her questions to the Biddulph idiot?

1. Comprehensive rebukes of the testosterone surge theory? Because I've had a number of very annoying conversations about this with otherwise intelligent people. Who now preface their ridiculous statements about their boys' special requirements with 'I don't mean to be sexist, but...' which at least means they are acknowledging their sexism.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRR the webchat is boiling my blood. His whole thing so far is either accept what I'm saying as (my) truth or I'll pass out

outs - I was trying really hard to get her to come back to do the book group, but I think she got quite fed up with MN. I know she got stalked on here, so that's why lots of her posts have gone. She is awesome, though.

Boys play with dolls all the time anyway... action man anyone? No, it's just female bodied dolls they don't like. Gender is socialised anyway, and seems pretty fluid between generations. My DGF wore dresses until he was 'breeched', we have photos of him and his sisters where they are wearing identical outfits, and, unless anyone is suggesting that men of my grandfather's generation had their dicks fall off because of it, then why are we all here?

I always say that, all those men fighting in the first world war.. would have been practically in dresses as babies.. Who would call them any thing less than hard as nails today?

OH SGM was awesome. ANd one of the few feminists on here that managed to not scare the crap out of me some how. I think she had a quite high tolerance for stupid questions and ignorance if she thought you were sincere.

(that all sounds really arse lickey, but she was actually very lovely to me in a few circumstances where I now realise I was being a dick)

I always meant tpo ask her about her name though as I find Family GUy to be almost one big rape joke though

IIRC, the name was because Stewie Griffin's Mom is basically the most downtrodden character you can find.

I feel odd talking about her when she's not here - I wish she'd get her arse back over here!

She is very active on twitter.

OutsSelf, she is here I believe.

No rebuke to testosterone surge I'm afraid.

I don't know how many of you are on facebook, but if you are, you might find this group interesting. It talks about gender and transgender. The members include radical feminists, Trans people, people who have transitioned and then detransitioned, feminists, and people who don't know what to think.

As a result you get a wide variety of views in there. It is an open group, so you can read the discussions without being a member.

www.facebook.com/groups/genderdiscusssion/