Feminist Pub VII - Chat, questions, random thoughts too small for a thread ...

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just setting this up while we finish off the last few posts on the old thread. Come in and pull up a bar stool!

[BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure]

"I think I will disassociate myself and hopefully with education on this board will arrive (eventually) with enough arguments to be able to engage in a discussion but not to be too emotional about it."

Your emotions are valid.

[PacificDogwood]

Ahem.
I do think that the patriarchy is damaging to boys/men too and that they'd have a lot to gain in a more feminist society
I so bloody hope that would be the case.
I have to confess I agree with quite a lot in that cartoon in that I find it shocking how young my boys are being formed by society to be 'manly' in so many subtle ways. Which really makes me angry, because I agree men need to change their ways, but clearly it won't just happen when their are such pressures on both boys and girls to conform to such damaging and clearly defined (and confining) gender roles .

Somebody upthread asked what makes a woman? I'd be quite happy to go with 'anybody who identifies as a woman', but do think that biology has an awful lot to do with that. And biology/Nature being the random set of rules that it is, creates random variations which include XXY, transgendered people, ambiguous sexual characteristics and all manner of other expressions of the human race. I sometimes thinks that defining things less might be helpful - man and women have much more in common and share more common interests than not, but somehow ended up in the unholy mess of 'them' and 'us' .

[whereisshe]

Pacific I have no doubt men are damaged in various ways by a patriarchy. That's not what bothers me, it would be childish to claim that only one party can feel injured in any given situation.

It's the implication of equivalence that bothers me, and the derailment of the discussion back to things that are about men. It feels very counter-productive to the actual issue of being disadvantaged through lack of willy.

Perhaps it strikes a nerve because this is how "equality" is always talked of in my workplace, as if addressing the issues in any meaningful way will upset the men too much so best to just pay lip service.

[PacificDogwood]

Oh gawd, yes, the big 'equality' excuse - I'm with you on that one!

As soon as there is 'equality' of disadvantage we can talk about equality otherwise.
I get what you mean now, whereisshe, sorry to be dim.

I get v emotional when angry and then get angry with myself for being emotional because it is so self-sabotaging (nobody is going to listen to the sobbing mess with a red face who has a good argument but is physically unable to verbalise it ), but advancing middle-age has greatly improved that problem for me: I am pissed off because xyz and that makes me cry with rage. Deal with it.

[cailindana]

Asutty, I explained to DH that I get emotional because the things I discuss are not theoretical to me. I was abused, I was raped, I was told by my own "dad" that I shouldn't be educated because I am female (this was instead of being congratulated on being top of the class in everything), I was told my my "mother" that being abused was nothing and I should get over it, I've been threatened and groped and felt unsafe in situations where I should just be able to go about my business. If he doesn't care about that, and doesn't listen to how I feel about it, then frankly all that tells me is that he doesn't care about me.

[cailindana]

To be fair to men, the reality of women's lives is so off their radar that when you start talking about it to them I think it comes across as very extreme. I think with my DH he couldn't really believe things were that bad and he never noticed it - it was a defensive thing to say "Oh it can't be that bad," or "but it's only for safety that you're told to cover up" etc, it was hard for him to admit that these things he had gone along with and not questioned were pretty darn shitty. I am impressed that he has (finally) accepted these things and, while he can still be defensive, he is much more willing to open his eyes and not shy away from reality.

I knew things were really changing for him when he came home a couple of weeks ago and said "I keep seeing sexism everywhere! It's driving me nuts!" That's what happened to me when my eyes were opened. And I have to concede that, if as a woman I had to have my eyes opened to things that were happening to me then it makes sense it would take even longer for a man to see them when he's not the target or the victim.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Hello!

All kinds of things, some good, some not so good, happening this weekend...

antimatter I work in a predominantly male environment too. Most of these men are very nice, and some are even progressive. But some think they are more progressive than they actually are... Those are the ones that make me want to scream...

whereisshe "Perhaps it strikes a nerve because this is how "equality" is always talked of in my workplace, as if addressing the issues in any meaningful way will upset the men too much so best to just pay lip service." Yes! Makes me want to scream. Tip toe round this, tip toe round that. AAARRRGGGHHH. My new year's resolution (belated) is that from now one I bloody well will scream.

PacificDogwood I agree about thinking less about difference and more about commonness. Women are people too! I actually said that to a man last week. When I buy books about growing up and such things I only buy the ones that emphasise common things (of course also pointing out differences but only in the biological sense. Does not harm a boy to know about periods, I think. ). Otherness is the devil's work.

[AnnieLobeseder]

cailindana - I completely understand what you mean about letting your DH off the hook slightly because they just don't get it yet. I had my feminist awakening a year or so ago, and before that I was one of those people who posted on feminist threads that I care about "the rights of all people, not just women", called myself an egalitarian etc etc. I'm so embarrassed about it now I could cry, and thank you to the FWR folk who were more kind and patient with me than I deserved.

So when DH still doesn't get what I'm ranting about, and rolls his eyes slightly when I shout at the TV for having an all-male panel yet again, I remember that only a short time ago I wouldn't have got it either, and I'm actually a woman, so I can't expect too much from him yet. But despite the eye-rolls, he does listen and is staring to notice sexism more now. I haven't exposed him to the horrors of things like The Everyday Sexism project and #YesAllWomen. But we have two DDs, and before they reach puberty, I think I will have to make him read them, so he can truly understand the world we'll be sending out girls out into. It will probably break him - in typical dad style he wants to protect the DDs from "boys".

Funny how men pretend they don't know what some men are like around women, until it comes to their own daughters. Then suddenly they become way more protective than mothers.

[whereisshe]

antimatter I work in a very male dominated environment too. I've chosen to chip away at it in a small way rather than all guns blazing. Eg pointing out that the (unwritten) promotions policy is narcissistic (rather than explicitly calling it sexist, which it also is). I genuinely think the sexism is a side effect of senior management believing that they, personally, are great, and what the company needs is more old, white, aggressive men

[asutty5]

cailidana we usually end up arguing because we both have been raped. Me at 16. Him at 10. If I get too irritated by his devils advocacy then it turns into him thinking im belittling his rape. It's difficult. He sees the sexism but he has suffered because of actions of women in his life( and men). He almost refuses to "pick a side" and basically "all humans have the capacity to be shit". That dosent fix anything! It just sets our children up for pain

[rosabud]

Funny how men pretend they don't know what some men are like around women, until it comes to their own daughters. Then suddenly they become way more protective than mothers.

Oh yes, such a good way of putting it! I'm never sure, with the whole 'protective Dad' thing whether it is:

a) possession (My women, ie my wife/sister/daughter, are MINE and no other men must be allowed to have them sexually) or

b) admission (I am a man, I have associated with other men all my life, and so I know just how appallingly my daughter will now be talked about/thought of/treated by other men.

Either way, depressing.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Even more depressing when it's your Not My Nigel doing it.

[allhailqueenmab]

Hello

I was wondering if there was a continuation of this

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/other_subjects/2122564-MNHQ-transphobia-guidelines-part-2

anywhere?

I was out a lot over the weekend and just caught up reading it last night. I really just wanted to say thanks to all the really clever posters on there. And say to Buffy: you are certainly not talking wankily! At all! and I really appreciate your posts

I hope you are all well and fighting the good fight
Happy Monday!

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Hello!

Very busy weekend. Birthday parties and everything.

What is it about people who would constantly point out to a girl that she's the only girl in the group? What is it??

[allhailqueenmab]

I was heartened at a barbecue where there were lots of adults who don't know my dcs very well, in how they played with them. Dd1 (5) is very arty and creative, also very social and likes inventing rules and procedures and events. She she bonded with another girl in building a hilariously inventive obstacle course which they amused us enormously by racing on. dd2 (3) is much less of a straightforwardly social animal and very sporty, especially with balls. I was so pleased to see the men picking this up with her and having calm serious, sessions of penalty taking at a quiet corner of the garden where there was a goal. They took her very seriously and no one said anything about girls not playing football. It was nice to see my little girls being treated like people! Real live human people, with their own talents and personalities!

[allhailqueenmab]

Oh no Buffy, why the wateriness? Is it about having this stuff dumped on you at work or are you feeling scarred by that thread?

I really feel for you. I am not at all qualified in your area but I do think you explain it very well.

Oddly, I am thinking now.... if you are trying your very hardest to get things right - but there is another POV which is that you should not be thinking / talking / writing that way because it is harmful.... that is not actually a criticism of the rightness (the content). It's saying "this discourse is not helpful to us right now". And that is actually surely more of a sort of - what? Po mo? post structuralist position? - to be criticising on the basis of what helps and whom it helps... rather than on the basis of what is right and wrong (which to me feels more positivist?)


I think (in my own vague and silly way) about questions like this a lot, because I work in a sub-discipline of an industry which, as a whole, thrives on privileging types of discourse (and personality types, a fortiori) which are the opposite of mine (mine being very suited to my low-status sub discipline). So I, and people like me (there are never very many) are in constant tension with our holding organisation, as a little sort of enclosed beleaguered nest within it. At the same time, I am conscious that I am being paid to exercise these personality traits which the rest of the organisation find inexplicable and annoying, so if I just stop being like this, I am not earning my money. And I have to protect people I manage who are also being like this and teach them ways of doing what they have to do, while presenting themselves in as least annoying a way as possible.

Anyway there are a lot of false dichotomies that are set up to keep us in our place and I enjoy deconstructing them in my head (not out loud because it will make everyone hate me)

So! - this is a really important skill - because it helps me understand why the story of who I am and why I am not important is being told in a particular way by people who are heavily invested in being Grand Poo Bahs - and I see this sort of analysis as being all about (at a very low level) your sort of world - but I also see why some people find it very alienating - because they can't afford or bear to start every conversation with defining the terms, or questioning our assumptions about the definitions and what received wisdom sets up - and - ok I am getting lost now

[WhatWouldFreddieDo]

allhail that doesn't half warm the cockles - we have a similar but older dd who much prefers to be playing football and depending on the day / her mood identifies strongly as 'a boy', 'a tomboy' or anyway not a girl.

I automatically love the adults who pick that up and run with it

[WhatWouldFreddieDo]

sorry, that was for the barbeque post

[7Days]

I loved that thread too and deeply appreciate everyone who brought their time and expertise to it

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Oh, buffy, I'm sorry you're feeling rotten.

Can I say - it is normal to feel really fragile when you're at the end of a PhD. I know you're much more senior than most people in that situation and not some wet-behind-the-ears type, but still - it's emotionally very draining. And I imagine that can't be helping with the work situation, which sounds horrible.

(As an aside, I think the thread in here about theory is the natural place to carry on that discussion if people want?)

[UptoapointLordCopper]

allhail Can I borrow the grownups in your BBQ party? I went to a children's party where a bottleneck was caused at chucking-out time by the fact that they've packed too many blue party bags and not enough pink ones and there were too many girls so they had to take stuff out of the blue bags and put them into the pink bags so that everyone could have the correct bags. > DS and I rolled our eyes at each other. But we didn't speak up.