AmnestyInternational Prostitution

[JuliaScurr]

Please tweet #Amnesty agm in support of Nordic Model
Pimps out in force

text messages which mention payment are used as evidence and so are "sexual sounds" heard by the police or conversations regarding payment.

But the cops cannot possibly stand outside every single escorts' apartment in the country all day every day. And what if they don't hear "sexual sounds" or if the client has the sense to delete his text messages or avoid mentioning payment in them? Then there's not enough evidence.

It seems a huge amount of police resources just for the sake of catching the odd client here and there (who are probably just everyday non-violent guys, not dangerous sex predators).

I've never been caught speeding. My driving licence is clean thank you.

Sweden seems to be ok with it, sote. 80% of the population are in favour of their sex laws.

I'll wager that your conscience isn't as clear as your driving licence, sote.

You're a punter or a pimp - we see you.

Have you given up the argument that Sweden is a dictatorship now? I don't blame you.

As well as wasted police resources, let's not forget the sexworkers who are evicted/have kids taken off them/deported after they are found to have been selling sex.

All for the sake of arresting a few everyday guys here and there.

...(who are probably just everyday non-violent guys, not dangerous sex predators).

I'm disappointed, though, sote, that you didn't listen to video after all.

Did you hear the part that many sexual offences/rapes are solved by the dna evidence gained from the punters they catch? Seem many punters are also sexual predators - and many rape cases have been solved as a result.

"80% of the population are in favour of their sex laws."

I don't know where that stat came from but I don't trust those kind of stats. For all we know they could have only asked 10 people, or they could only have asked a certain type of person who would be likely to give the answer they wanted.

And if the stat was an online one then we can't be sure people haven't voted more than once by clearing the cache and refreshing.

Well, you wouldn't would you?

And what about the rape cases solved by catching punters?

A good thing, yes? A good use of police funds - they are literally catching rapists.

Rape is and always was illegal in sweden.

Yes! And they've identified the perpetrators of unsolved rape crimes in Sweden from the DNA collected from arrested punters. A good thing, yes?

You wanted them to spend their limited police resources solving 'real' crime, including rape - well they are. So you're happy, yes?

Look it's not rocket science, we all live in a society, we all have to get along. Some behaviour is deemed anti-social, and we have laws against it. We rightly stop people littering and we're don't hear wails of entitlement from the pro-littering lobby! If we did we tell them to shunt off, once we picked ourselves up off the floor from laughing at them.

Now I am not going to rely on facts and figures supplied by this or that biased group, I am going to rely on common fucking sense. I am fortunate in that I have a pretty extensive friendship circle, which includes many female friends. Not a single one approves of prostitution, and would view any situation where that was the only option as pretty bloody bleak.

Women on here seem to echo the trend I find in my real life, and to be perfectly blunt that's a good enough reason to have it criminalised. We are a society and how a significant portion of that society feels on an issue should not be dismissed, even if you happen to disagree with it. To say nothing of the fact that a majority of men do not use prostitutes, so it's not even an issue men are all singing from the same hymn sheet on either.

I would find a lot more sympathy for the pro lobby if the argument was along the lines of "yes we're pro prostitution, yes we're aware many women are engaged in it are in desperate straights, and no we don't want this state of affairs to continue, so we support this and that initiative to alleviate this. We're going to campaign for regulation making safety the absolute priority etc etc" Oh and for good measure "we are not going to hold up men who go on to have sex with shaken, worried and in tears women as some sort of moral exemplars"

As it stands the case so far seems to boil down to "some women choose it, I am not going to examine the landscape around where that choice is made in any way shape or form, so I am going to continue doing it, and la la la I'm not not listening meanwhile everyone listen to me....". In summary you are not winning any hearts and minds here.

Dervel, they used to argue that. Then countries like Germany and the Netherlands who actually tried to do that showed that that course of action was a disaster. Prostitution, trafficking, violence and involvement of children all increased.

One thing rarely mentioned by the pimp lobby is that prostitution is awash with criminal gangs. You don't make an industry controlled by criminal gangs safer by trying to legalise it. And the pimp lobby know that. But legalisation makes their life easier.

That is why the more intelligent amongst them now argue for decriminalisation, rather than legalisation. Because then every country where you can point out it has been a disaster to get rid of legislation, they can shout that that country actually legalises prostitution, and they are talking about total decriminalisation.

I have read all the research so I know what the pro pimp lobby argue is a nonsense. But like Dervel, at its base I think prostitution is wrong. I think it is wrong that a man can buy a women and use her body for sex.

And if during apartheid people had produced research showing how black people would be better off under apartheid, I would still have thought it was wrong. Some inequalities should just not exist. But it seems when it comes to women, so many awful situations are accepted.

I also want to point out that Amnesty have form for this kind of thing. They used to argue that FGM was a cultural practice that should be respected.

Well like I've said before I'm not an authority, I'm not as familiar as most here with the research, but like I said before I find it a self evident truth that:

a) Women I know are not supportive of the sale of sex, and I don't think many are, and bottom line whatever the reasoning is that stance IS relevant.

b) I think there is cognitive dissonance in that the pro lobby on the one hand they push that there is no exploitation, then argue coming down hard on pimps is too hard to enforce. That simply isn't consistant.

My worry is we (collectively) other prostitutes, when in actual fact the police should light a fire under their collective arses and protect, protect, protect these women. Be seen to protect them, and we don't tolerate their abuse. We have all recently become much more aware of child abuse and there is much greater societal will do SOMETHING about it. We need the same here.

I don't accept the arguments about male suicide, other crimes being more worthy. I don't see people advocating burglary should be legal because murder is worse, and police should focus their efforts there. It would be like turning on the news and hearing about this ferry disaster and some pundit saying "well the situation in Ukraine is much worse we should be reporting on that". It only seems to come up in situations that primarily affect women that we get: "well yes, but what about xxxx other issue". I'm getting sick of hearing this line. We are the human race and our brain is the single most complex thing in the known universe, we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I also want to point out that Amnesty have form for this kind of thing. They used to argue that FGM was a cultural practice that should be respected.

I did not know that grennie. I'm I'm beginning to believe women really are 'other' to Amnesty.

We have all recently become much more aware of child abuse and there is much greater societal will do SOMETHING about it. We need the same here.

Agree with this. The only way that there can be societal change with respect to prostitution though is if the users and profiteers from it are seen as the criminals and the women (and they are predominantly women) are seen as having rights. In this way, the men would be stigmatised and the women not 'othered' as they are now by large sections of the community.

This kind of change can happen. It happened with litter, wearing seat belts, child abuse, rape within marriage, domestic violence (although that change is ongoing!). All of these were seen as normal or impossible to police, the law was changed and slowly, but surely, society's attitudes to these things changed.

And the thing about AI doing nothing about FGM because it's cultural, innit.

Of course a lot of women aren't going to agree with the idea of prostitution. Possibly because they are afraid their hubby will run off to one if she isn't providing good enough sex. Also women can get free sex really really easy without any effort- even if they are really ugly or unsociable. Horny men aren't picky. (this explains why there is less demand for male sexworkers.)

If a man wants a one night stand and isn't drop dead gorgeous he would have to spend all evening parting with money for drinks etc while being funny, charming, sociable, witty etc. And then after all that maybe he could get sex. (Or he could just skip all that and book a sexworker.)

If a woman wants a one night stand she just goes out and waits for men to come to her.

But it's what the women who are sexworkers think is what should count. Their safety is far more important than people's moral beliefs. And from what I've seen sexworkers (with the one and only exception of rachel moran) all seem to want decriminalization.

You do realise sotegsoteg don't you that your post, especially your second paragraph, has simply illustrated that men like you are simply walking dicks look for a an orifice - any orifice - to park your dick in.

Which is why punters are shallow tossers.

Ok, the usual tropes.

1. We are afraid if we don't do what dear Hibby wants sexually, he will run off to a prostituted woman. Do you really think the women on this thread would even entertain a man like that? He would be out of the door so fast.

1. Poor poor men who actually have to talk to a woman before they can get sex. And I do notice you talk about sex like a transaction - not my idea of good sex.

3.Yes women who want sex can get as many perverts and creeps as she wants. Oh lucky us!!

1. Yes just pretend Rachel Moran is the only woman who says this. Ignore the over 170 woman who are members of survivors connect for example. Very convenient lie.

soteg - Why don't you ask the pimp lobby to send someone here with better debating skills than you?