Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

which women are awesome beachcomber?
all or some
what you think of asma al-Assad?

sillybilly That's me, gosh I'm so dumb sometimes!

My nightmare vision wasn't particularly to do with you, beach. It's interesting to talk with you about genderised communication 'n' stuff (just not this babygirl travesty).

But I am going because the thread on the whole is depressing me, for reasons I may as well not detail anymore.

Got to practise my pout, anyway

Oooh, perfectly timed post, Dust!

reasons I may as well not detail anymore - just been said :)

Thanks! x

I am not garlicbutter's sockpuppet.
Honest. Cross my heart and hope to be reincarnated.

dust it's the same for me - i have to do what i do despite how it looks to men and plenty of women and the costs etc etc. i agree with you - we feminists have to do that and face the consequences.

i just don't think i have the right to slag off other women who don't do that so overtly. did you attack the women who weren't feminists back then? who did wear the ribbon in their hair and keep a clean bed? how did you perceive them and what did you think was to be 'done about them' or would happen with them?

we face the same really except worse in reality what with the backlash and women being plucked to death and skinnier and more preened and primped and nipped and tucked than ever and living in a pornified culture.

no one is saying that any of these things are feminists or that we as feminists would want to engage in gender stereotypes at work - the point that is contentious is how we view those that do and what can we actually do about that given it's up to them how they choose to get by in this world?

" I would like to see her behaviour challenged. I do not think there, there, poor ickle girl doesn't know any better. She does know better! And should be encouraged to drop this unhelpful and damaging act."

I don't suppose you're calling on men to encourage her to drop this unhelpful and damaging act. Just women. Let's all sit there "challenging" the way other women behave, while men sit there laughing at how bitchy women are to each other and continuing to hold most of the power.

I feel very sorry for all those women who have never experienced sisterhood. You're missing out.

"I don't suppose you're calling on men to encourage her to drop this unhelpful and damaging act."

But I thought it was already agreed upon that a man commenting on the unhelpful act is a sexist wanker?

what can we actually do about that

In this instance, we can pull them up on it if we are their boss. We can model assertive behaviour and send our staff (all genders) for assertiveness training.

One babygirl woman I worked with complained that the men seemed to respect me more than her. So I explained. it wasn't difficult.

We can ask men not to pander to it. They can ask the speaker to repeat what she said. They can (some of them) resist slipping into bigdaddy mode.

Things can be done.

I am not Dust's sockpuppet!

I just can't believe that there is a whole raft of people who do not want to talk about men's sexist behaviour and are still interested in talking about women.

Well I can believe it.

And we should accept that all the power is in their hands and we should wait until they are ready to share

Where did I say that? Ever, on this thread or otherwise?

All I'm saying is that I don't want to slag off other women for making the deals they do with patriarchy. Or for being human and being susceptible to socialization.

Feminism isn't about policing other women and slagging them off AFAIK. Shame we seem to spend so much time on making that clear when our time could be better spent putting the focus on how power structures function to our disadvantage.

The raft of people is talking about some women FEEDING men's sexist behaviour, Nyac ... and one of the rafters is extremely tired, so will actually jump off as promised so many times already.

Right.

Patriarchy would crumble if women would stop with the feeding it already.

I think I'll just C&P on a loop my earlier post.

"It is all women's fault running the world the way they do to disadvantage themselves and treat themselves like shit. Cowbags all of 'em I say."

'i just don't think i have the right to slag off other women who don't do that so overtly. did you attack the women who weren't feminists back then? who did wear the ribbon in their hair and keep a clean bed? how did you perceive them and what did you think was to be 'done about them' or would happen with them?'

We were young and confident and part of a sisterhood, and we did look down on women who chose to accept servitude as their lot, or who actively wanted to do nothing with their brains and talent and become Stepford wives to successful men.
It may not have been something you would agree with, but many of us had come from a background of housewife mothers where father ruled the home and we didn't want that for ourselves or our children.
So we chose to recognise that we had free will and that the many of the choices we made were our responsibility. That we could either comply and flutter and compliment or demand respect and refuse to play the game.
We supported our sisters in other countries in different ways, through collectives and organisations like Traidcraft which was set up in 1979 and Oxfam who empowered women by enabling them to be economically active. Through medical facilities that introduced contraception and reduced child deaths.
So I'm very disappointed that in so many areas the things we thought we were achieving have twisted and changed, and that now empowerment is seen as the freedom to use porn, poledance for exercise and warp your body in order to fit a standard. Or to use the age old persuasive techniques of cleavage and arse wiggling.
But it's all OK because those are what women are choosing to do and have the freedom to do so. Or there is nothing they can do about it because they have been conditioned into submission and that's where they will stay until men choose to free them from it.

I do wonder what feminist theory will look like in another 30 years.

'we face the same really except worse in reality what with the backlash and women being plucked to death and skinnier and more preened and primped and nipped and tucked than ever and living in a pornified culture.

no one is saying that any of these things are feminists or that we as feminists would want to engage in gender stereotypes at work - the point that is contentious is how we view those that do and what can we actually do about that given it's up to them how they choose to get by in this world?'

But isn't there a whole group of women saying that these are feminist choices?
Were't they called third wave feminism or something?

Oi, retrofeminist. Wait up.

Oh Please.

Nobody is arguing for those things (porn , pole dancing, etc). I'm just not about to attack the women who end up doing it. (There but for the grace and all)

No, it isn't advancing the revolution to do those things but who the fuck am I to judge the women who are the most subjugated by male supremacy?

How about we judge those run the fecking supremacy?

those who run

If I wasn't judging the patriarchy i n a negative light and challenging sexist behaviour and refusing to accept my destiny as defined by the ruling sex, then what have I been doing for the last 30 years?
Although I didn't know about the patriarchy until MN, I just saw it as men being in charge of everything and setting down rules and expectation and barriers. Many of which I refused to kow tow to, along with most of my friends.

"One babygirl woman I worked with complained that the men seemed to respect me more than her."

Getting respect of men is not the aim of feminism. Men have set it up so they are the judges of women (see OP). It's BS.

But that is pretty much what patriarchy is Dusinthewind. Doesn't matter what you call it.

Brilliant that you and your friends didn't kowtow. Not all women are able to do that though. Feminism is for all of us, all women, including the ones who haven't had their consciousness raised or who find it difficult to be uppity. Sheesh.

"The raft of people is talking about some women FEEDING men's sexist behaviour, Nyac ... and one of the rafters is extremely tired, so will actually jump off as promised so many times already."

What do you think feeding men's sexist behaviour looks like Garlic?

I tell you what I think it looks like - slagging off women for "babydoll behaviour" or asking for feminists to be tolerant of sexist men. Making excuses for sexist men whilst giving women a hard time is extremely anti-woman and anti-feminist.

OK, Nyac, I'll rephrase. I got things done, changes made, my proposals accepted. She got smiles and no deal. Was trying to save words.

She hunted me down a couple of years ago, emailed to thank me for that. Apparently changed her life.

Bloody glad I didn't just complain about the status quo and leave her be.

Yes you should be proud of yourself for getting male approval and teaching her how to get it too. That's what matters after all.

oh I hate this determined stupidity.

No one is arguing that there is no such thing as free will or agency.

People are just asking women to concentrate on men's behaviour instead of that of women, becasue it's more to the point. Patriarchy thrives on women slagging each other off while men sit round with beers enjoying the cat-fight.

That's feeding patriarchy

That's the bottom line here. A whole lot of people think that the OP's husband has every right to judge women.

I hope that feminism will change that and that one day no man will be able to put himself in a positition of power over women to accept or reject her, or to withhold his respect, based on his arbitrary judgements.