Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

It Isn't A Competition To See Who Fits In Best In Male Dominated Society.

(Feminism that is.)

If the men hold the power and you want some you have to wrest it from them.

If the men do not hold the power or you don't want some, no need for feminism.

Well quite, Basil. Simple but so difficult to grasp.

And you wrest it from sexist men by tolerating them do you Garlic. How does that work.

Well I would fucking respond adversely to a man who tried to lord it over me. Why so different when a man responds adversely to a woman trying to cower before him

You tolerate sexist men by not challenging them, not saying or doing anything that rocks their world view of themselves as God's gift to the planet.
Which is what gb and I are saying is not what should happen, and that women shouldn't be seen as incapable and unable to do anything to help themselves.
I read my children a lot of feminist fairy stories, because I didn't want either of them to think that Cinderella and Rapunzel were the only possible roles for a heroine.
Waiting for the prince.

Can I just say a big thank you to the fab women/men on this thread who are debating this topic? It's absolutely fascinating. I'm learning a lot from you all - at the moment am tending towards the "let's try and change everyone's sexist behaviour" but Nyac, Beachcomber etc also very convincing. I would love to show this thread to ALL the people I know who find feminism boring/irrelevant/past history. Thank you muchly.

Now, back to lurking.

I don't care whether the man with the power is sexist or not Nyac, except that the sexist is harder to handle. What I care about is making a watertight case for giving me the power I need. On micro and macro scale.

Better said by Dust.

Thanks, Rumpus.

Face it garlic, we are doing feminism wrong. It has evolved beyond our ken.
Want to hobble off into the sunset and share a mug of cocoa?

The sexist man on this thread was not challenged, except by a few of us. Everybody else was interested in criticising women's behaviour and ignoring his.

Hello Letthewildrumpusstart. I'm very glad if this thread is of interest.

Personally it is doing my head in but hey, that is the nature of feminism.

I'm just kind of weirded out by feminist discussions where we seem to have to ground-hog over the fact that patriarchy exists and it 'ain't the oppressed class's fault that it fucks with folks.

We are, Dust! I've got beer, if you fancy a change?

Its' doing my head in too.

I can't remember when feminism stopped being about challenging sexist men and became "Women, you're doing it WRONG", because that isn't why I signed up. I want sexist and misogynist men stopped.

Good to hear you've found it useful Letthewildrumpusstart.

"I want sexist and misogynist men stopped. "

I want sexist and misogynist people stopped, and don't really care about their plumbing, but just their sexism and misogyny. Is that really so wrong?

Dust - I bring my DD up with a mind on actively countering patriarchal messages too. I certainly don't want her growing up thinking she is a passive doormat and can only accept whatever life throws at her. I want her to follow her dreams not apologise for having them and yes I'd like to see more children brought up with this attitude because the more of them that are, the greater the potential for change at a grass-roots level.

But I could raise the most free-thinking, motivated, irrepressible young woman in the world and it still won't make the sexist dinosaur who is her boss anymore inclined to give her promotion if deep down he believes women are second best to men. And it won't protect her if she refuses to perform her gender role and he doesn't like it.

You know what you oldtimer feminists who have been doing this since before I was born - I would really like it if you could show me where it was considered feminist (by that I mean second wave) to slag off other women.

Where do the second wavers say that it is political to shun the oppressed??

Because if you are going to have a go at women who act out sexist stereotypes you need to be consistent. You need to slag off prostitutes and women in porn and women who collude in their oppression by binding their daughter's feet and cutting off their clitorises.

Because it is all part of the same thing.

I prefer the sisterhood myself.

OP I have one of those little girly type voices, I do not "put it on", I LOVE when I have a sore throat because I get SO much more respect from men like your DH, even though I am saying/asking/suggesting the exact same things! - the difference in the reaction I get is staggering!

1] How will you stop them, Nyac?

2] When you have stopped them - what will be your response when a man says he's uncomfortable with the simpering way a female colleague grovels to him?

I despair the speak & spell it's sexist menz fault explanation of feminism
a liberal progressive ideology doesn't rely upon demonising,and
sweeping generalisations

"it still won't make the sexist dinosaur who is her boss anymore inclined to give her promotion if deep down he believes women are second best to men."

In my case that sexist dinosaur was a woman. And that's why I think it's unhelpful to only concentrate on challenging men instead of challenging sexist behaviour.

Just like to point out that some of us actually don't give a damn how a computer works and wants someone to fix their IT problem ASAP so we can get on with our more important work.

I don't don a baby voice when I have an IT issue, but I find it incredibly patronising when some IT person tries to teach me how to resolve the issue by myself the next time. I am simply not interested. Think the OP's husband is peeved because the women he is serving have no respect for his role - in their eyes, he is there to serve them.

But can't you see that a woman who doesn't promote another woman because she believes women aren't as good as men is also a victim? Whereas a man who does the same is simply protecting the privileged ranks.

If I could stop women doing all those things, Beach, I would. But by asking a woman in a London office to talk normally, I'm not asking her to give up her livelihood or get beaten to death or be shunned by her entire community.

Cremeggs, it's crap that others judge you on your own voice (Burchill has the same problem.) OP's H said explicitly, though, that he observed these women switching to girlish mode.

You stop them, by stopping supporting them, stopping tolerating them and by drawing more and more women into feminism so they can call out this kind of BS behaviour. Look how it's taken off at Mumsnet.

"what will be your response when a man says he's uncomfortable with the simpering way a female colleague grovels to him?"

When men no longer have any power over women, they won't be doing sexist things like complaining about women "simpering". I wouldn't listen to any man complaining about women. He would need to just keep it to himself. I'm not a handmaiden who likes to hear other women being criticised.

Why didn't you challenge the man posting sexism on this thread Garlic. Why did you think we should be tolerant of him?