not sure what to title this but it's to do with ejaculation

[YuleingFanjo]

and in particular a man ejaculating on a woman's face. Sorry - I feel awful writing it down.

I was talking to a friend last night, she is much nore sexually adventurous than I am and she was saying that she thought it was part of normal sexual behaviour, that most men found it a turn on and most people she knew thought it was normal.

I argued that it was something that came from porn, was not what I would call normal and there was no equivilant sexual 'thing' for a woman to do to a man. She said that women can 'gush' (I have never done this, maybe I am abnormal) or piss or poo (!) which I pointed out was a totally different thing. But is it?

I was trying to discuss it with her and point out that her sexual encounters are out of the norm, definitely aren't encounters within a loving relationship, and that ejaculating in someones's face is surely more about disrespect than anything else?

or am I wrong. I just find it really horrible and if anyone asked me to let them do so I would show them the door.

Soory - I hope I don't sound like some hairy trucker trying to get off on the whole thing, and I am not asking for personal experiences (I would prefer not to read them thanks) but more to discuss if I am right about the power/porn/disrespect thing...

Where it could go for it to be ok in your view/in your view of what feminism means.

You know, this has been an interesting discussion. It's led me to read up on some other people's views and I totally get a lot more about some points of radical feminism I didn't get before.

And I've thought a lot about what degrading means. I guess it means differ
For me though, just because something is shown in a degrading way in porn (which, let's face it, is pretty much every sex act known to humankind) doesn't have to mean it's degrading in real life. Just because bodily fluids go on someone else sometimes doesn't mean it's degrading. And dominant and degrading are pretty different things.

Time for me to bow out though.

Yellowraincoat, for me you have this the wrong way round in your above post.

It isn't degrading because it is shown in porn.

It is shown in porn because it is degrading.

The dominance comes from the degradation. That's what power over means - making the other person less than you. In the case of facials - by leaving with semen dripping down women's faces. People don't like bodily fluids on themselves, they wipe them off.

When you look at it from the point of view of other bodily fluids, it makes it much clearer how creepy men ejaculating women actually is:

"Can I spit on you, it will show that you accept me and my saliva"
"Can I sneeze over you, it will show that you accept me and my mucous"
"Can I piss over you, it will show that you accept me and my urine"
"Can I shit over you, it will show that you accept me and my excrement"
"Can I fart on you, it will show you accept me and my bowel gases"

Obviously the corprophilia and golden showers are already in sex because men (as a group like making a festish out of almost everything, particularly bodily functions) but rather than tolerating them women should be resisting men's festishes. This stuff exists within a culture of male power and dominance, it's not like women are on equal terms anywhere yet, so reinforcing women's degradation and mens' dominance through sex is very retrograde.

Feminism really isn't about what any particular woman happens to like or has decided to accept, it's about examining situations in the context of male power and female lack of power. When you start looking at facial ejaculation from that point of view it becomes much more problematic and also clearer what it's all about. Which men are pretty honest about when women aren't around and they aren't trying to come up with excuses to get their female partners to accept it.

Yellowraincoat, you come across as an intelligent woman. And yet you seem to keep coming back to the argument that because this act is part of a sex life that you enjoy and are perfectly at peace with (and I don't wish to comment on individuals' private lives AT ALL), that that somehow invalidates a wider political analysis.

It doesn't. Surely you see that?

Because the problem is, that this analysis doesn't apply only to ejaculation on women's faces. Jizzing on women's faces is the thin end of the wedge. And the wedge isn't that thin and it is very big.

The same analysis applies to all the other practices which are popular in porn because they put women in their rightful lowly status place. Be that bukkake, ass to mouth, double penetration, throat fucking or anything else.

Good for you if you are happy with it in a private sense. I quite honestly couldn't be less interested. The whole subject is bigger than that.

Maybe I care so much because I have youngish daughters. I hate what is being done to manipulate the sexuality of young people. For me it is impossible to be simultaneously positive about sex and defend the travesty that is porn.

Beachcomber, maybe the point is that to Yellow and others on here, not all sex acts are created equal and what is shown in porn bears no resemblance to what we may or may not do in the bedroom. I presume that sex involving a man and a woman having penetrative sex whilst muttering filthy words of encouragement to either other has been shown in porn at some point? Should I not do that either?

To me ass-to-mouth (something I'd never heard of until I came on here btw) sounds foul and I wouldn't have any part in that. I can see that a man wanting to do that may be making a point ("I will make you eat your own faeces") However, apparently plenty of people accept rimming and other practices involving arses without questioning whether it is degrading so where do you draw the line?

Nyac, Many who would accept jizz on faces (myself included) don't accept anything up their arse (generally!), wouldn't dream of letting anyone shit on us and wouldn't be coerced into shitting or pissing on them either, regardless of why they may enjoy that. What about a woman pissing on a man, is that a symbol of women's dominance over men?!

What each of us enjoys or tolerates is a sliding scale which is calibrated depending on your personal tastes, your past experience and your willingness to overlook any political analysis because something specific just turns you on.

Nyac in answer to the question where should his semen go:

"Tissue, hand, body (his own) or a condom generally works.
Women aren't semen receptacles."

Are you serious?! Those are his options?!

If DH insisted that any of my bodily fluids were to be contained within tissues or only kept on my own body, he'd be out the door.

This is very interesting and I really should be doing many other (less interesting) things but anyway. I am a little bit confused by the meshing of act and intent in the posters who find the act of ejaculating onto a woman (instead of into) particularly degrading. If it is forced it is not sex but a power play and a violent act if it is consensual and enjoyed by both parties it is ok in my opinion. The sexual act is always complicated by issues of choice and if someone feels degaraded by a sexual act they initially consented to then there is a issue of communication between that couple rather than a problem with the particular sexual act involved.

For me there is no absolute, the act is defined by the intent and the individuals involved, if they are consensual adults in a loving relationship and equally able to communicate their desires then what is the problem? If the image is troubling that is because you are defining it by it's portrayal in a pornographic context, if it is occurring in the privacy of a bedroom and not being filmed then who is being harmed? I am genuinely confused as although I understand the concept of personal as political - there are some things that can be undertaken and enjoyed on a primal (lusty) level that do not have to approved by a committee beforehand. Or am I hopelessly blinded by the patriarchy? I suppose the issue for me is women should not be forced to do any sexual act - grading the acts on the intrinsic depravity value of each seems unecessary - if it is forced/ coerced it is wrong.

Yes bigmouth, exactly.

Surely a man 'forcing himself' on a woman, whether straight penetrative sex, blow jobs or anything else is intended to be degrading - that's what differentiates rape from sex. It's not the act, but the intention to degrade, humiliate and hurt, and the lack of consent.

What about a woman pissing on a man, is that a symbol of women's dominance over men?!

We already went over that sort of question a few times on the thread. I appreciate the thread is long and you may not have had time to read every post. We live in male dominated society. There can be no symbols of women's dominance over men because it doesn't exist at societal level.

As for the rest, basically we are talking about choice and consent and what they really mean. As has been said earlier we do not act in a vacuum.

From Catherine MacKinnon;

The assumption, is that women can be unequal to men economically, socially, culturally, politically, and in religion, but the moment they have sexual interactions, they are free and equal. That's the assumption - and I think it ought to be thought about, and in particular what consent then means. It means acquiescence. It means passivity.

It's from an interview which isn't massively relevant to this thread but here is the link for anyone who wants the context.

Zombie thread.

That DM article has a lot to answer for

Lets be honest here a guy that gets off on ejaculating on a females face is probably getting off on a sexual dominance tip. It probably did originate from or become more common as a direct result of porn.

A Female who enjoys it is probably enjoying being sexually submissive.

As long as they are consenting adults who cares?!

There are plenty of men who get off on being dominated by women and plenty of women who get off on dominating men.

Whether people want to admit it or not many people even if they are not dressing themselves up in outlandish costumes or trying to relive every act from 50 shades of grey enjoy on some level exploring sexual dominance and submission heck they may even regularly swap roles.

Unless someone is being forced whether physically or coerced by other means let people get up to what they want in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

This is a zombie thread from 2012. Let it die.

I'm sure there are plenty of ways both men and women could be coerced into going along with things they are not 100% comfortable with.

I'm not sure I really need to explain the concept of being coerced on a Feminist board.