To all those who say on threads 'I am too scared to go into feminism' - this topic isn't scary!

[GetOrfMoiLand]

I think it's a shame when I see threads where the OP says 'I am too scared to put this in feminism' or something.

I am certainly not knowledgeable about feminist theory, but have never felt that my opinion on this thread wasn't wanted or I was vilified for stating what I believed.

I think this topic is pretty inclusive - yes some people are forthright with their opinions, but nobody's word is god, and I would hate to think that mumsnetters were put off contributing to threads in this topic because they mistakenly think the posters on here are viragos.

not defensiveness, just most names on here are 'known' names and not loads of 'new' names and I was one of the ones that mentioned the academics and reading lists - pretty sure most would assume the same

Also adds Backlash to her wish list. It sounds like another eye opening read.

'swallowedAfly Thu 14-Jul-11 20:43:13
agreed sunshine. the only thing that is ruining this section at the minute is having it ripped apart (along with everyone in it) by these threads.'

Those threads you mentioned.
No, I'm not having a go at you.
Why would you think that? have I attacked individuals before?
I was generalising from my own experience of dealing with disruptive, aggressive, hostile and challenging parents who come into school all fired up about something that has happened or hasn't happened.
I don't get defensive, I have a reasoned argument to present with evidence, I listen to the ranting and answer it a point at a time.
If, on occasion, they have a point mixed in with the yelling, I treat it with respect and follow it up and come back with an answer.
That's why I wrote
'But I've often found that a good, intelligent and well articulated response to a criticism is the best form of defence.'

The feminist section is a general forum with threads on specific (wide-ranging) topics. If a poster has issues that impact how they perceive other posters' arguments/mode of discussion there's nothing that the posters can do about that.
If you look at relationships threads you see that people are generally very kind and gentle with posters because the thread is about a specific emotionally difficult issue. But in the feminist board if you actually look at the rape threads you see the really insensitive stuff tends not to come from the feminist regulars who are being criticised here - they are the ones that realise it is a serious issue that impacts people. If you look at those you can see that they are actually defending women who have been raped from trolls and people putting forward mainstream, misogynistic views on rape.

"The feminist section is a general forum with threads on specific (wide-ranging) topics. If a poster has issues that impact how they perceive other posters' arguments/mode of discussion there's nothing that the posters can do about that."

I would accept that if I was the only one who felt the way I have. I'm not the only one so in this instance, I don't think I am projecting

That's a good point floyjoy.

I mean there's light hearted threads, debatey threads, support threads all under this banner, and different dynamics and approaches on each. Something for everyone, i would have thought, and pointless to generalise. One thing remains the same though - someone will pop up to say we're wasting our time talking about a programme on the telly/it wasn't rape rape/feminists are no craic and hate when other people cum/delete as applicable.

MsC, what do you want to happen, then?

You're not the only one who's ever felt bad on here. Obviously. But what do you think is going to happen now?

MsC -"The feminist section is a general forum with threads on specific (wide-ranging) topics. If a poster has issues that impact how they perceive other posters' arguments/mode of discussion there's nothing that the posters can do about that."

I would accept that if I was the only one who felt the way I have. I'm not the only one so in this instance, I don't think I am projecting

But lots of other people have disagreed with you. Lots of us have posted sentiments similar to mine.

If you don't think you are projecting, bringing any of your own issues to this discussion, then why did you feel the need to mention them to us? You seem to be telling us that the board is a disappointment, that the posters treat you the same as other women have. I do not mean this in any nasty way at all (honestly) but don't you think you could be responsible for how you feel? We shoudl all aim to make ourselves repsonsible for how we feel. That's healthy for adults, surely? We all bring our life experiences, our interpretations of them to the board. How could we not? Everyone has baggage (for want of a better word) - you're not alone in that.

Look, lots of people don't like feminism and by extension, feminists. They come over 'ere with a negative attitude, they say negative things, they are then met with negativity adn they flounce off feeling negative.

Even people who think and who say they are feminists, but who see nothing wrong with the existing patriarchal structures and don't recongise the need to change them if we're ever going to get true equality, find that when confronted with a more radical feminism, they feel hostile to it. So they behave in a hostile fashion and are met with like behaviour.

So your thing of "look, lots of people think like me" is really not a convincing argument to me. Of course lots of people think like you. Lots of people hate us. That's fine, that's their choice, they have the right to hate us if they want.

I still think anyone who is genuinely interested in feminism, will overcome their hatred and listen to the arguments, even if they don't post that often. And maybe eventually they won't hate us anymore, but look, it's up to them.

I had a fantastic baptism of fire here, it worked. I became fascinated and engaged by feminism. Some regular posters were completely part of that and for that I'm grateful. I agree with the comments upthread that speak about saying the thinking is misogynist as opposed to the poster is a misogynist.

Having waded through all this, I find it ironic that on the feminism board of all places, women talking about being intimidated are told that they 'allow' themselves to be bullied.

Tbh, I do find some of the arbiters of this board revel in their postion of being the ones who hold the True Feminist Knowledge and it's a shame when they act like their viewpoint is the only correct one to have, there is a lot of disagreement and differences in the wider feminist world and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I get bored with being told to read books by the same three women (Dworkin, Daley, Greer), because my world, my interests and feminism itself is much, much wider then the viewpoints of three white, western women.

Also, in the 'we love the radfems' statements here, it's being ignored that of them here have absolutely disgusting views regarding trans people.

Finally, I would like to give a big hijab flutter to Riven, my fellow Muslim feminist . Yes, there are Muslim feminists.

I also think the 'us' that is frequently used by regulars (I used to be one) is a bit 'closed'. If someone self identifies as a feminist then surely there is no them and us?

Ok, totally understood

I'm out of here

So don't read those books GothAnne.

Read what you want.

Crapola, I think that is something that pretty much everybody on this thread agrees with, There isn't any 'us', anymore than there is an us on AIBU, education or style and beauty.

But Goth none of the posters here have any power over anyone else.
Whether that's to compel others to post more politely, or over other people's feelings or perceptions. It's not RL, on a forum there is an element of personal responsibilty over oneself - feelings, actions - and no-one else.

"Look, lots of people don't like feminism and by extension, feminists. They come over 'ere with a negative attitude, they say negative things, they are then met with negativity adn they flounce off feeling negative."

That may be true sometimes but it doesn't apply in my case or in the case of many of the people who have made a contribution to this thread.

And that is my final word. I'll leave you all to enjoy your supremely self-satisfied back-patting self-congratulatory tiny weeny circle. Long may you continue to enjoy it.

"I'll leave you all to enjoy your supremely self-satisfied back-patting self-congratulatory tiny weeny circle."

No that's not negative or insulting at all, is it?

And that sort of comment is just so normal on here. If you don't agree with what I say or with what other people say, then put your own views forward instead of insulting us and then flouncing off.

Is that really adult behaviour? I mean, seriously?

Ah Bibbity. What's self satisfied about defending ourselves? HerBex is right - some people do come with a negative attitude.

this is so fucking sad. Honestly. If the section doesn't suit you, stay away. I went to Egypt once - didn't like it won't go back. Even if I am missing an awful lot.

Sometimes, posters who are all feminists, and who have a lot of common ground, can get into bunfights. There are posts of mine that people have thought were anti-feminist, or deliberately trying to derail feminist discussion (I'm not, and I wasn't). But when I read back I can see why people misunderstood. All any of us can try to do is to post in good faith and reply in good faith.

I do understand that not everyone feels up to challenging rude posters on the thread. But - sorry - I am slightly fed up so I'll say this. I did bother to challenge people who I thought were bullying. I did it on the thread. I didn't enjoy it either. I'm not naturally rhino-skinned. But I took the trouble to have an honest, face-to-face argument when I thought it was important. I'm not saying anyone else should have to do that, but if you didn't do that or felt you were too scared to do it, why is the onus always on someone else?

You're confident, so you take issue with me posting about women who are not. You're thin-skinned, so I must stop using scary academic language. You don't like the way others post, so you'll keep on bitching about people who aren't here until what?

SS that happened to me with Bulgaria

and so what HerBex? Your/my loss. If only Egypt would become more like France, I'd be back like a shot