To all those who say on threads 'I am too scared to go into feminism' - this topic isn't scary!

[GetOrfMoiLand]

I think it's a shame when I see threads where the OP says 'I am too scared to put this in feminism' or something.

I am certainly not knowledgeable about feminist theory, but have never felt that my opinion on this thread wasn't wanted or I was vilified for stating what I believed.

I think this topic is pretty inclusive - yes some people are forthright with their opinions, but nobody's word is god, and I would hate to think that mumsnetters were put off contributing to threads in this topic because they mistakenly think the posters on here are viragos.

I had that happen to me on an entirely different thread.
Did you spend time carefully searching to see if you'd posted in your sleep?
I wasted a while before I realised that the poster was talking nonsense.

'just how widespread the hatred of women and girls is and how we are all guilty perpetuating it without realising.'

Do you mean by other women?
Because I've always found the most pervasive criticisms I've faced throughout my life have come from women. I think everyone who has been objected to here is female as well. So why are women so very hard on other women?

I haven't found women to be more critical of me than men. I have found women to be much more supportive.

Of course!
I like the idea of abdicating responsibility for my judginess of others and passing it up the chain.
Got to go and collect DS, back for my time on the naughty step later.

I've had the same experience as Milly. I really, really appreciate support from other women and I do think it is very special.

Ok. Well my pov, which may not be welcome but I am trying to express how I feel about this as best I can, is that the more the conversation gets caricatured the less useful and productive it is.

I haven't made any comments about any regulars. I wasn't engaged in a witch hunt. If posters stop posting then I think that is sad and counter productive.

The idea that my feelings are being stereotyped as a lack of backbone, or fluffiness, or against any poster or group of posters is a shame because that was nothing close to what I felt.

I have been trying to reconcile how I react to a thread when I see it is in the feminism thread and how I ought to. It bothers me that I would think about posting and then decide not to bother. Many things about my life make this a section I should be drawn to but it isn't. I was trying to make sense of that.
Lots of posts have helped clarify that for me - the posts about feminism needing to be challenging made sense. My own recognition of similarities between this section and the way I feel about the sn section also gave me food for thought.

But I don't accept the arguments about the irony of posters reacting warily to assertive, vocal, strong poster and how that is anti-feminist. Because being aggressive and take no prisoners is surely how you treat people you wish to defeat rather than support, isn't it.

When I went to work in a mostly male environment aged 18 I had a handful of senior women out of thousands. A few were " shut the fuck up, roll your sleeves up and get up to speed or get out of the way. I have taken shit to get here, now you can take shit too and how you deal with that will determine whether I respect you or not" .
A few others treated me just like the male staff but supported me, showed me the pitfalls, helped me through the maze without patronising. They were mentors.
I didn't need fluffy or patronising. I just needed them to see I was x years behind them but trying to travel in the same direction - not to derail what they had achieved. I didn't see them as fluffy or less than feminist

Fwiw I feel a much greater sense of what this section is all about and am posting a bit and feel more inclined to.
Although I realise that for those of you missing dittany that must feel like losing a picnic and finding a shit sandwich.

Sorry, that came out wrong! Obviously I don't have the same experience as Milly - sorry Milly - I mean I draw the same conclusion from my experiences.

LOL Pag you are not a shit sandwich.

But I have to take issue with this: "being aggressive and take no prisoners is surely how you treat people you wish to defeat rather than support"

If I want to analyse something someone said, that isn't aggressive. It's not a question of taking no prisoners, it's drilling down into the essence of that post and taking it apart to find out what lies behind it. I do understand that that can be a bit unnerving for someone who is not used to their posts and statements being taken apart and critically analysed, but that's kind of what this section is for, and it isn't aggressive to do that. Tapping back into what SAF said, i think that's falling into the trap of seeing vigorous political debate as being aggressive, particularly when it is done by women and even more particularly when it is done by women who identify as feminists. But I hope that mostly, people are deconstructing the argument that is being put forward, not the person.

And I think that's the most difficult thing for people, because they do mistake criticism of the argument, with criticism of them personally. And perhaps we need to be clearer with people, tht it is their posts we are taking apart (I don't mean taking apart in an attacking way, but taking apart in the way children take apart i-phones to find out what's in them). I'm going to try that as part of my effort to create a love-fest. But I expect I'll still get told I'm a manhater.

sure, I hear that.
It is about deconstructing the issues rather than aggression aimed at the poster.

I am going to bow out frim this particular thread, mostly because the ' why does the feminism section feel so difficult' discussion is impossible to separate from the 'feminists vs everyone else' thing.

But I am going to lurk more, post more and never ever ever call anyone a man hater.

Yes I agree with that, god forbid it should be like CiF what a wanky place that is.

I think it is a bit like that atm and I know I've been far more aggressive than usual in the last week because of the influx of MRA trolls.

I guess we're going to have to try and learn to deal with them differently so that they don't change the nature of this place and dumb it down to CiF levels.

I think SaF talks a lot of sense when she points out that the arguments we are having are classical "women-silencing" techniques.

I also think Lenin talks lots of sense when she says there are rules that all apply to everyone in regards to the use of MN. This has been said before on this thread, although I don't remember by who: if you feel that someone has attacked you in a post, report it and get it deleted. This is true whoever the poster is: including me, Hully, Dittany or anyone else. I said before that I don't think there are many of us out there who can cast the first stone here. I certainly can't.

I would add as my personal opinion that certainly is not on, to complain about one and then have a pop yourself. I think it is not on, moreover to continue to complain about this person, when they are nolonger around to defend themselves.

I also think that feeling under attack is intensely subjective and what feels like an attack to one person, might not to another. I think this may be the case of feeling insulted by the use of the term misogynist, when someone points out that what you are saying is misogynist. Personally, I would only find it insulting if it were the case that the term was used as a deliberate insult; ie when nothing remotely ressembling a misogynist argument could be pointed too. I think that in doubt, the best way to acertain this is to answer such a charge with "why?" If a good number of people wade in to point out the misogyny I think you can be pretty sure that the term wasn't used to insult but to describe.

what is CiF please?

As usual, xposted with about an hour's worth of stuff. Will catch up now. Apologies.

What is CiF? Is it a feminist forum?

Sparky, it stands for 'Comment is Free.'

It is when people write comments on the Guardian website, under the articles.

Hi sparky

The sad thing is that these threads have made a difference. I no longer enjoy this section as much as I did. Instead of having a discussion about feminism with other feminists, where I learn things and pick up new perspectives, I now feel that I have to be able to justify everything I say without referring to anything other than what's in my post and without saying anything that could be remotely construed as offensive. I think I'm one of the more moderate feminists in terms of the way I phrase my posts, yet if it's having that effect on me...

I totally agree about the points made by others about going on the defensive because a misogynistic attitude has been pointed out to you. Dittany has done it to me. Did it sting? Yes, damn right it did. Did I flounce off? No, I went away and thought about what I was saying and whether there was any truth in what dittany said. And you know what? There was. And I never took it personally either. I just knew that dittany meant my opinion was misogynistic or rape apologetic, not me personally. Dittany may be confrontational and difficult to deal with when she's pointing out the flaws in your argument but she cares far too much about women to go around personally attacking them. I can't help feeling that if what someone says has so much merit, then they'll be able to withstand dittany's posts and point out why it's not misogynistic in a convincing manner. And if they can't, it doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong but they need to admit that maybe they should reflect on the validity of their argument a little more.

I don't want to repeat the same arguments over and over again. I want to develop and grow by talking about feminism with people who at least understand that there is a point in it. I don't care if we disagree about what the point is or how best to achieve it, but we do at least have to agree that it's needed, surely. Otherwise we wouldn't bother with a feminist section and just post threads about feminism elsewhere on MN.

' I think that in doubt, the best way to acertain this is to answer such a charge with "why?" '

I think that is a response I'd use, without intending to sound bolshie or up for a scrap. If I annoy someone because of a flawed argument or question, I'd rather they explained, or pointed me in the direction of an answer.