To all those who say on threads 'I am too scared to go into feminism' - this topic isn't scary!

[GetOrfMoiLand]

I think it's a shame when I see threads where the OP says 'I am too scared to put this in feminism' or something.

I am certainly not knowledgeable about feminist theory, but have never felt that my opinion on this thread wasn't wanted or I was vilified for stating what I believed.

I think this topic is pretty inclusive - yes some people are forthright with their opinions, but nobody's word is god, and I would hate to think that mumsnetters were put off contributing to threads in this topic because they mistakenly think the posters on here are viragos.

There are frequently new posters on the feminist section saying the reason they have joined is because of Dittany.

oh i see.
thankyou for telling me this Milly.

Goblin: "Why are women so hard on other women?"
I think in general because we expect better of one another. We expect solidarity and get hacked off when we don't get it.
From my pov: The best example I can give you is that I think that the perpetuation of rape myths and other despicable elements of the patriarchy can only continue because so many women blythy and unthinkingly repeat them.
I want women to put on feminist goggles and see all the casual, not obvious and subtle forms of maintaining men's privilege in the world. I think most women can see the obvious stuff; but I think society still does a good job of telling us how to frame questions about rape or abortion or domestic violence or anything else for that matter.
I don't think it is a good thing, or very helpful, to let women say things that are essentially propping up the patriarchy just because they are women. Precisely because of their sex it is in their best interests to be aware of what they are doing. And I am sure that some women feel insulted and patronised by it; but I am not going to apologise for it.

Sorry Lenin. I know you have. I have a tendency to repeat myself.

I still think that of the people who flounce off in a huff, it's because they have very deep seated beliefs which clash with their other deep seated beliefs and people on the feminist board show that up and make them realise that the two beliefs are incompatible. And if theyr'e not ready to deal with that yet, they'll flounce in high dudgeon and if they are, they'll go away and think about it and come back and explore more.

Thank you for the response Cat.
It's just that over the years the heaviest criticism of my personal appearance, my home, my family life and my hobbies have come from women. The worst bullying I ever experienced was in an all female environment. I do have several close, female friends but my best friends are male.
The stumbling blocks placed in my path job-wise have been by women limiting things and being very passive-aggressive about it rather than direct confrontation.
The pressures my DD faces as an atypical female are largely from girls who feel puzzled and threatened by her difference. She's sharing a house with 4 men next year at uni, as I did in my final two years at uni.
I've felt supported by friends, or those of like mind, but I can't say 'I've felt supported by women' in a generic sense, because I really don't feel I have.

You've been very unfortunate goblinchild and missed out on an enormously valuable, comforting resource.

I've been far more supported by women than by men in my life.

But both our experiences only tell us about us, they don't tell us about life, the universe and everything in general

Why can't people see what others are saying

There is nothing wrong with being strident, there is nothing wrong with robust debate and strong feelings on a subject, there is nothing wrong with reems and reems of text and nothing wrong with book recommendations

The problem comes from some posters jumping in with you are MRA, you are misonygist, you are a rape apologist, you are an anti feminist - when most of the time the person isn't, they just have a different point of view. For example - the Palin thread... if you didn't feel in the position to comment if it was a rape or not, you were a rape apologist. Someone recounted a story of a young person that made up a story of rape as she was so scared of her mother to tell the truth - again, that person was a rape apologist. There was no middle on that thread

Another recent poster, questioned some parts of a number of threads - every thread thereafter, she was called jamez and MRA. If you upset a tiny minority of regulars, you are never going to be able to join in.

Other times, people words get twisted out of context and re quoted days later. And when you have trouble to get the words out in the first place, it can make you feel like you are going mad (that one is personal)

Telling people to leave the thread or why are they even on the thread, is out of order. Even if they are total arseholes, they are entitled to their opinions

IF people see just a handful of examples like the above (and I have seen many many more) they will feel that the feminism section is hostile.

Saying someone has said something misongynistic is fine, saying they are a misonygist isn't. I struggle with the views some have on the transgengered, just because I don't agree on that one subject, doesn't make me anti feminist across the board. The same goes for many over many subjects

'the only thing that is ruining this section at the minute is having it ripped apart (along with everyone in it) by these threads.'

I'm sorry that you feel like that. To me, it's more that change is often painful for those that are comfortable and happy with what is happening, but that unless you want to shut the door, it is very difficult to keep anything in a state of stasis. Other people come along and challenge, fairly or not and the dynamics shift. Sometimes that's a positive, sometimes not.

Um, viz the Jamez and MRA one, I believe he actually was the charming James.... that's why he got called it... he's pretty easy to spot

There's another one around atm but he hasn't yet been challenged. Thinks he's oh so clever, but he's not, he's a dick.

MsC, I think reporting someone who makes personal attacks is the best thing to do. Then HQ will delete the post.

'But both our experiences only tell us about us, they don't tell us about life, the universe and everything in general'

I agree, and having a son with Asperger's has also affected how I view the world and the interactions that happen to us personally.
I don't think I've missed out, I've just been selective about the company I keep.
Greenham Common was an interesting introduction to some different groups of women, as a student. Likewise the local feminist collective. Huge variation in what was OK and what was anathema.

McCellophane, IME people only get called rape apologists, when they are putting forward rape apologia.

I'd like to know the context of those rape apologist posts. And also, if you get accused of being a rpae apologist, then maybe you should put forward an argument as to why your argument is not rape apologia, it is something else?

I mean you as in one, btw, not you personally