Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

[Ormirian]

Thread obliquely about a thread. Sorry.

But as I read more I got and then and finally downright .

I have always thought that having children was a joint project. Both parents have as much invested in the child, both care equally about the outcome. I always beleived that was a given. With good decent men anyway.

When children are small they come first. Always. Simple logistics demand it for a start. The parents gets what is left over in terms of energy, time and affection. In a solid relationship with similar attitudes that is absolutely fine because it's temporary and for a worthwhile goal.

I have heard about fathers being jealous when a new baby arrives. I can understand that I guess - mother's do tend to get wrapped up in newborns, exhausted and emotionally drained. However I always assumed that jealousy of a baby (who also happens to be their child) is something that would be regarded with embarrassment and shame. Something a man would fight against and certainly not mention seriously to his partner. If he was jealous of his own child he'd do his damndest to sort it out himself and not parade his ego in front of his partner and demand she massage it for him!

Have I been suckered by the myth of the New Man? Do most men really feel as if their infant children are 'in the way' and taking up too much of their partner's time? How can you be jealous of the affection your partner shows to your child and the time and energy she gives them? And what happened to supporting your wife/gf in what is a hard time for her too? When she needs your support and love? When she doesn't need more demands?

Are you telling me that sakura doesn't hate men?

I am just undoing some of the stereotypes that seem to be spouted on here. Men are human beings, the same as women and you can't generalise.
No one seems to point out that sakuras attitude is unhealthy, stopping her from living a full life and may, if her DD lets her, affect her too. No one has suggested couselling. She could try just being friendly with a man, without any involvement.

are you having trouble digesting the facts I'm giving you exotics that's fair enough , they're a hard pill to swallow, but don't shoot the messanger.

I wish you were right , I wish the world was different and that men didn't murder the women they were living with with such regularity. But they do. ANd statistically this means a woman safer not being married. These are the facts you cannot change with wishful thinking.

"She could try just being friendly with a man, without any involvement."

Oh this is so funny, if you knew me IRL you'd know how funny this statement was. Prince has met me IRL, she will attest to how funny this is.

And I disagree sakura-you are projecting your views/experience onto your DD which isn't healthy. She is not you, there is no reason for her to think the same or have the same experiences. She may meet her soulmate and live in harmony until she is 90yrs or so. She won't know if you poison it for her and make her frightened to get emotionally close to a man.

Bahahahahahahaha! I'm just laughing at how you're projecting nonsense that you've made up about my life onto me.

Anyway, back to the drawing board.

I am not talking about airy fairy personal feelings here. I'm giving you the facts , the statistical facts about men, marriage and violence against women.

Statistically very few men murder their partners in UK. You are far more likely to die in a car crash.

statistically two women are murdered a week by their spouse in the U.K alone
And a fair few men are sexually abusing their daughters too

And it's comparatively very rare for a woman to be murdered by someone she is not in a relationship with, unless she is a prostitute

I'm sorry sakura, but when you get on to trans women and crime figures that it sheer paranoia.
I can see that you are never going trust a man, because of personal experience ,but the majority of women are going to be fine.

Drat, PrinceHumperdink.
Foiled on the cyborg baby front

yes, quite right exotic. My view of life has been marred by personal experience.

Personal experience of reading crime statistics about violence against women,
that is

"I can only think that I am stupid to come on this thread and the only reason that I don't get backup is that most people keep off it-they have perfectly happy relationships with men and can't be bothered."

I don't understand this point at all. Lots of people on here have said that they have happy relationships with men.

Again, why the assumption that questioning some male behaviour = "I hate men"?

Sometimes I think I have strayed into a parallel universe! I will go and do a bit of peaceful gardening instead.
I would suggest that you don't read the Daily Mail.

Your comments to sakura are very personal and rude exoticfruits.

I'm not sure why when her only 'crime' is to hold views you disagree with.

She hasn't got a crime-she needs counselling.

A question for Sakura. If your DD listens and takes it all seriously as a lesson for life-how will she cope with university , if she wants to go? Bearing in mind that Halls of Residence are all mixed these days? Or would she have to live at home, or find lodgings with a woman who promises never to have male family staying? What if she wants to be a strong independent woman and backpack overland to Australia alone? Will you wave her off happily? Or will your fears stop that too?

Read the post! If she takes her mother seriously and won't live with a man and goes around the world instead.

My mother reads the Daily Mail and concludes that elderly women can't go out after 6pm! It preys on fears.

I still would like to know if she would wave her DD off happily on an overland trip to Austrailia, alone? My niece did it-and came back in one piece and is happily living alone. I just wondered how much freedom is expected, as an alternative to living with a man.

I see that it is perfectly OK to be rude to me!

Well if she's backpacking over Australia she is NOT living with a man and therefore will be statistically safer, so I think Sakura won't have a problem with it at all TBH.

Please highlight where someone has been rude to you exoticfruits and not just disagreed with what you said.

To answer your question, and based on what sakura has actually said, I think she'd be perfectly happy with that scenario.

LOL exoticfruits I can now give up giving you the benefit of the doubt in case you are genuinely trying to engage with the arguments but just a bit thick.

When Sakura quotes the transsexual crime figures, that's not paranoia, those figures are real.

Do you understand that acknowledging crime figures, doesn't imply anything about someone's psychological disposition?

Whereas continually pretending that people have made arguments they haven't, setting up Aunt Sallys in order to knock them down... um... does.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

I'm sooo confused, exoticfruits.
I look from my playing baby son, to my sleeping husband (am about to make him Father's Day Pancakes!) and think: Oh god, I hate them. I mean, I didnt know that I hated them, but it appears I do, because I've read the same crime statistics that sakura has, and I rather think she's right.

And that, apparently, makes me a man hater who doesn't have real emotional involvement with men.

Oh no, wait, it doesn't. It's absolute bollocks.

You haven't responded to my earlier question. Do you even think the Patriarchy exists?