Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

[Ormirian]

Thread obliquely about a thread. Sorry.

But as I read more I got and then and finally downright .

I have always thought that having children was a joint project. Both parents have as much invested in the child, both care equally about the outcome. I always beleived that was a given. With good decent men anyway.

When children are small they come first. Always. Simple logistics demand it for a start. The parents gets what is left over in terms of energy, time and affection. In a solid relationship with similar attitudes that is absolutely fine because it's temporary and for a worthwhile goal.

I have heard about fathers being jealous when a new baby arrives. I can understand that I guess - mother's do tend to get wrapped up in newborns, exhausted and emotionally drained. However I always assumed that jealousy of a baby (who also happens to be their child) is something that would be regarded with embarrassment and shame. Something a man would fight against and certainly not mention seriously to his partner. If he was jealous of his own child he'd do his damndest to sort it out himself and not parade his ego in front of his partner and demand she massage it for him!

Have I been suckered by the myth of the New Man? Do most men really feel as if their infant children are 'in the way' and taking up too much of their partner's time? How can you be jealous of the affection your partner shows to your child and the time and energy she gives them? And what happened to supporting your wife/gf in what is a hard time for her too? When she needs your support and love? When she doesn't need more demands?

[exoticfruits]

Well I have skimmed through it and they have been married long enough to have DCs are they are still in that state! He didn't suddenly leave all that mess-he must have done it from the start.
My DSs friend is a good example. My DS found him a good friend but impossible to live with, he was utterly relieved when he chose to move out. He has gone to his girlfriends-he is not going to change and I expect, being in love, she will tidy up after him. She needs to use her head, sit him down on day 1 and tell him straight that she isn't a servant. Decide how they are splitting it. However I don't think she will, if they stay together and have DCs she could be writing an identical post.
I haven't had to do that. Both my DHs had lived alone, were much tidier people than me. They had done everything and carried on doing it. If DH needs a button sewing on he gets the sewing box and does it. You can get some indication when you first meet them. DH had a meal with my mother and straight away offered to wash up-she didn't refuse! His father had been a widower for years, his father cooked me a full roast dinner and he was over 80yrs. I have no idea if DHs father or mother or both made him capable, it doesn't really matter. He is.
If you have useless DH and you are doing everything for him (he will remain useless if you do) then it is useless moaning that fathers should make their DCs do housework-much better to at least train the next generation to think it normal.

[exoticfruits]

Thank you so much stoptheclocks-the whole thing is so patronising that I think 'if that is feminism count me out'! They think Ormirian and sakura are saying the same, (even Ormirian and sakura), but I can't see much in common with the posts and they want to grind me down until I do! Ormirian is upset that I agree and must have said something wrong! I could have written it myself- but apparently this is not on unless I admit that sakura has a balanced, reason view and isn't damaging her DD.

[exoticfruits]

Thinking about it further, why is it just assumed that men are slobs? My neighbour is a lovely woman, but the house is a tip. If I go around she will have to clear me a place to sit. A policeman was around recently to interview her about her stolen car, she saw him gazing around and said 'I haven't been burgled-it's always like this'. It is too, at Christmas she just puts up a tree in the middle of it all! She has a DH and 3 DCs, they all treat it as normal.
The only problem is when you get a very neat person with a slob!
When we met DH was too tidy for me, he apologised for his house being a bit sterile. Over the years we have rubbed off on each other and he is more laid back and I am a bit tidier. I would still rather have a blitz on the house every so often than have a daily(boring) system.
My DS is very young, he started off politely with his flat mate as in 'could you put the rubbish out?', he got more assertive as in 'will you wash your dishes-I want to use the sink?' He was wondering how he could get rid of him when he decided to go to the girlfriend. My DS certainly wouldn't have gone on for years the way women seem to with DHs.
You just need equality from the start-why put up with less?

[exoticfruits]

You may just get two people who are completely different. Judging by MN carpets are more important than people and shoes must come off. I am not going to be rude and ask visitors to take shoes off-if DH was a carpet worshipper- we would have problems. If both want shoes off they are OK. You do need to iron out these little things-people get blinded by love and then it is too late-habits have been formed.

[exoticfruits]

I would say that both parents are raising DCs to not do things for themselves. Stand outside any junior school in the country at the end of the day and watch, DCs will immediately hand bags, lunch boxes ,everything they are carrying to mum or dad and mum or dad will be a 'pack horse' without query. Err....why......?-by aged 10 or 11 some DCs are taller than Mum but they still do it, without question. (note I said junior school, little infants are often so burdened they can't manage).

[Ormirian]

I wasn't really upset that you thought that exotic. I was just confused. In principle I do think we are saying the same thing - just in different language.

The onus is on men to change, not women. IME most women have more than enough to do to have time to reeducate men. And whilst the patriarchy exists men have a vested interest in not doing so unless they are exceptions to the rule, so the aim should be the erosion of the patriarchal status quo. Marriage is a crap deal for a lot of women unless you happen to be in the fortunate position of being married to a man who behaves as he should rather than how he can get away with - and even then it's bloody hard work and not neccessarily worth the effort. And yes, women are more at risk from the men they cohabit with than random red-eyed strangers in raincoats but that can't be a surprise to anyone?

But this thread has wandered a little having started from the premise that it is perfectly acceptable for a mother (and ideally a father for that matter) to prioritise her children over her partner in the first few years of their lives. And any man who is offended and upset by that is a twat and an emotional leech of the first order.

[sunshineandbooks]

So you agree that both parents play a part, but you see only mothers as being responsible for change? Hardly seems fair, does it.

The reason I directed you to the other thread was to make the point that these women are unable to even recognise that they have a sexist partner. How on earth are they supposed to make a stand against it when they can't even see there's a problem?

You can't call all of those women stupid. Many of those posters have quite demanding jobs. The typical MN demographic is MC, degree-educated even if not in paid employment due to children. Calling these women silly is a cop-out explanation and doesn't reflect the reality. The reality is social conditioning and given that various surveys suggest that in the vast majority of relationships the woman still does more than 50% of the housework, I'd say it's pretty bloody effective social conditioning. I'd say that people who see through it and rebel against it are actually in the minority.

It's also worth remembering that a truly sexist man will not change, no matter what. Just like an abusive one. You can stand up to it all you like, but it's likely to make matters worse, not better. The only recourse in this situation is to leave. That's when people like you come out and talk about relationship breakdown and the damage on the DC etc. Talk about being unable to win. The point is that if many men shaped up, it wouldn't be necessary for the woman to leave in the first place.

So how do we overcome it? Dump the responsibility for change on women? Again? Adding to their already unfair workload? Or do we pressure men into changing by tackling the established patriarchy, which IMO seems fairer. Go after the sexist advertisements. Increase paternity leave. Increase access to childcare. These are things that can change the cultural conditioning women are subjected to without making them directly responsible for fixing a problem many of them aren't even aware exists.

[exoticfruits]

I think we change it with our DCs. We stop saying 'why shouldn't men tell them'-in some cases you could wait until hell freezes over! and we start with our DCs. (In my case it was easy because they think a father does it anyway and copy).

I do think that women have to be truly equal though. There was a thread recently where a DH was doing a lot of housework but not 'up to DW standards'. I think you have to let go control. I don't do housework to anyone else's standards other then my own-if DH has different ones he can do it himself!! I know, from just observing, that my ironing, isn't as good as his-he has never commented-but if he did I would say 'do your own then'. He doesn't iron my trousers the way I like them ironed. Quite rightly- he says if I want them done a particular way I will have to do them myself.
There is another thread where the woman is at work and her DH wants to take the 2yr old to France for a few days to see his family. She knows he will be fine and DD will love it but doesn't want him to do it. Sensibly, it only took a few posts for her to say she was being unreasonable. Anyone could understand her not wanting to do it, but DD could cope without her quite happily-she had Daddy.

I still think that people should use their heads more before they enter a relationship. Wait until the 'honeymoon period' has worn off, see them with their family and friends, see them with too much too drink, go on holiday with them etc etc and walk away if not happy. Women have choice. No one needs a man.

I have lived with women who are complete slobs. You need someone with the same standards. DS's bedroom was a tip before he left home. It didn't bother me-I shut the door on it-just insisted he did his bit in the rest of the house. As it turns out, he likes tidy and order. If he liked chaos and mess there is no problem whatsoever if he lives with someone who is happy with chaos and mess! You need to find someone similar.
When I was a student I lived with 5 other women, I could see that we had different standards and that a rota would only cause resentment. We didn't bother and lived quite happily with chaos.
I have been to DS3s student house-he tells me it is tidy! He is happy, they are all happy. It is only a problem if one person has different standards.

It is a communication problem.

I would expect a man to prioritise DCs in the early years-but it helps if you choose a man with a similar background and you have discussed it first and you know what his childhood was like. If you choose one very different, with different expectations- you need to talk about it first. To know the man and expect something out of character without having discussed it seems over optimistic.

[HerBeX]

LOL, my patronising of Exoticfruits is deliberate because I think that's what she deserves with her continual setting up of Aunt Sallys so that she can avoid engaging with people's actual points. Anyone who behaves that way in a debate, deserves to patronised to within an inch of their lives and I reserve the right to pat her kindly on the head if she does it again.

Viz us being able to change it with our children,Exoticfruits, once again you are wrong - one thing you said that was right, was that children learn from what we do, not from what we say. So no matter how much women role model equality, independence etc., if men aren't doing their fair share, children are going to imbibe that lesson.

And another thing - the well-worn technique of not doing the housework up to someone else's standard, is simply another method of ensuring that you wriggle out of doing your fair share. There is a reasonable balance between not being a control freak and insisting that everything is done in exactly the way you want it, and having a hygienic home in which you can relax and feel comfortable. I accept that some people are simply control freaks; but I also know tht masses and masses of men out there, deliberately do the housework really badly so that their partners re-do it and don't rely on them to do it again. Once again, don't blame women for having too high standards, blame the men who are using a really manipulative technique which my children don't even bother to try out on me anymore...if you live with someone, you love them and you want domestic harmony, you bloody well make sure that you do the housework to their standard, because you care about their comfort. I once lived with the most exacting gay man who would bleach the bejasus out of our kitchen every day, he was incredibly fussy and wouldn't even let me leave the newspaper in the kitchen as he considered it a mess (I'd left it there because I thought he might want to read it!) After a bit, I learned his standards and in the communal areas, I upheld them, because it was his home, he didn't feel comfortable if I cleaned it to my standards (which are low) and I cared enough about his comfort, to make the effort to do things the way he wanted, because the way he did things, didn't make me uncomfortable and it wasn't honestly that much of an effort. I didn't claim to love him, I didn't have children with him, I didn't intend to spend the rest of my life sharing my home with him and yet it wasn't too much trouble to go to, to ensure that he could feel comfortable in his own home. And yet it's too much trouble for loads of men to that for their wives or partners? Hmmm. Either I'm an unusually nice person (I doubt you'll agree ) or they are unusually shitty people - probably not that likely. They're doing it because they've learned it and once their partner has complained about it on several occasions (whcih they then characterise as nagging) they are responsible for re-learning, women aren't responsible for their education.

[exoticfruits]

Communication HerBeX.

My DCs do as their parents-both of them- do. Either you make sure your DH is doing it as an example ,or you sort it out yourself. No utter point in moaning.

I do my housework to my standards-I think they are fine , I am not doing it to perfectionist standards-if they want it they can do it themselves. I don't call it manipulative-I have never been any different-if they didn't like it no one forced them to live with me! I am quite direct-what you see is what you get.

[exoticfruits]

At the bottom of it all HerBeX-why did you start living or go onto have DCs with a man who didn't think the same? Was it something you didn't realise until afterwards? Did he hide it? Did you not ask about his childhhood, see his father in the home etc.

[exoticfruits]

Not everyone thinks the same. I saw a friend today with 4 DCs and 5 cats. I couldn't live like it, but she is perfectly happy as is her family. I expect she would hate her DH to be cleaning everywhere.It isn't of the least importance to her. Everyone is different. Communication is the key.

[HerBeX]

Why do you care? Is this particularly interesting to you? do you think it will shed light on this discussion? As it happens, my xp did more of the housework than I did, to around the same (low ) standard? What point are you trying to discuss?

[exoticfruits]

She doesn't iron either-ever.Neither do her DH or DCs.

[HerBeX]

But when women "communicate" about stuff they want that men don't want to be bothered with, men call it "nagging".

[exoticfruits]

The point I am trying to discuss is why you feel that every family has to be the same? DCs do as you do. If you are living with a man who isn't doing as you think he should, you had a free choice in the first place not to live with him! I have a family without heirarchy-if you have one the same why does the rest matter? Let them sort it out for themselves.

[exoticfruits]

They can call it what they like! Does it matter?!

[HerBeX]

"The point I am trying to discuss is why you feel that every family has to be the same?"



Didja see what I did there, Stoptheclocks?

The reason I did that, is because I don't feel that every family has to be the same and I never said that Exotic, so why are you asking me to justify feelings I don't have and never said I ahve?

LOL. This is why I can't take you seriously. I haven't bothered to keep a tally of how many times you've done this, but seriously, can you not argue something without attributing arguments to other posters, that they haven't made? Why are you still doing this, when it's been pointed out again and again? Can you really not help it?

I think it does matter what people call things, language is incredibly important, I can't be bothered to argue the case in detail atm because I think it's a whole other thread in itself. But if you use the term nagging about someone asking you to do something that's important to them, then you are saying that that thing doesn't matter and isn't something you should be bothered with. Calling something nagging, is a declaration that you are not prepared to communicate with the person who is trying to communicate with you.

[HandDivedScallopsrgreat]

Herbex - exotic is even attributing arguments to herself that she isn't arguing: "I would say that both parents are raising DCs to not do things for themselves." That's not what she is saying at all!

[exoticfruits]

I said it doesn't matter because it is such stereotyping that 'women nag'. Why would you have to nag if you have communicated? You are only going to nag if you are going over and over something that isn't happening-with no hope of it happening. Nagging is like whining in DCs-deeply irritating and gets you nowhere.

I agree we need change, but change never works if it is imposed from above. Who is this 'they' who are going to make change?
It has to happen at grassroot level with individual families. Ideally, people should have an equal partner and the DC just copy.
If you have a partner who is still dropping jeans and towels on the floor for the 'magic tidy up fairy' to move ,after 10yrs, 2DCs and any amount of nagging I think that you can safely say that he isn't going to change! It is a bit pointless to say why shouldn't the man teach the DCs if he isn't! You might as well just sort out your DCs and make sure they pick up clothes and towels. (while deciding if you put up with DH).

Anyone would think you had to have a man-you do have choice. If it is important to you, use your head first. When I met DH2 and fell in love, we both had worries. I was worried that he hadn't seen DS at his worst and he was worried that he could actually live with another person having been on his own for so long. We went on holiday for 2 weeks-well away-abroad and self catering. He did see DS at his meltdown, impossible tantrum, and in the pouring rain in the middle of countryside you certainly get to know each other! If he hadn't loved me-loved my DS -I wouldn't have continued. If I was heartbroken I was the adult and could deal with it- DS came first.
He knew exactly how laidback I was and that I am not a perfectionist-I would have been more than a bit miffed if we had got married and he had wanted me to change my housework standards. If he didn't like them he could have got out first!

You do need to communicate.
I can't work out what I am saying that attributes things to others that they haven't said.

[Ormirian]

Oh good lord! There's another thread about a poor man who's dick is falling off due to lack of sex when there are 2 small DC in the family....

[exoticfruits]

I haven't read it but if he was doing his bit he would be too tired aswell!

[HerBeX]

Of course it's stereotyping Exotic.

It's what men say women are doing to shut women up.

That is why it matters if men use the term.

That's the point I was making.

I'm sorry you can't work out why you're attributing things to people that they haven't said. I can't be bothered to go back through the thread and find the numerous examples for you, if you're genuinely interested, you'll do that yourself. I'll content myself with your last example, where you said:

"The point I am trying to discuss is why you feel that every family has to be the same?"

Now please find me the post where I said or implied that every family has to be the same. You won't be able to, because I never said or implied any such thing anywhere, but you have attributed that sentiment to me for reasons best known to yourself. You have been doing this throughout the thread Exoticfruits, if you're interested you might want to go back and read the thread again and pick out the bits where I and other posters have accused you of doing that and where you have chosen to ignore those accusations instead of refuting them or engaging with the argument. Because you've been doing that, you have made your arguments look very weak.

[exoticfruits]

It was the housework. You are assuming that all women have high standards. There seem to be two rules. If a man criticises a woman, people are quick to say 'tell him to do it then' but if a woman criticises a man he is 'wriggling out' of his fair share by doing it badly.

All you need to do is make sure before you live with someone that you have similar standards. If DH wanted people to take their shoes off when they visit I would be seriously upset. Someone who wants them off would be upset if he didn't take them off.

I always remember a woman saying when asked about housework 'it isn't my priority at the moment' (I have since used it)-it wasn't her DHs either and they were perfectly happy. They would both have been miserable with someone who did make it a priority and wanted to force the other to make it a priority.
I have a lovely friend, but I would hate to live with her-she tidies the DCs playroom every night, or gets her DH to do it. He gets on and does it, but would he be so dreadful to say 'I think it an utter waste of time-it will be back in a state tomorrow?' Is he wriggling out or just being sensible? It depends on your way of looking at it. (a complete and utter waste of time from my point of view-especially when she even colour co ordinates the toys!)

You just need communication.

They may look weak arguments to you-but not to everyone