Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

[Ormirian]

Thread obliquely about a thread. Sorry.

But as I read more I got and then and finally downright .

I have always thought that having children was a joint project. Both parents have as much invested in the child, both care equally about the outcome. I always beleived that was a given. With good decent men anyway.

When children are small they come first. Always. Simple logistics demand it for a start. The parents gets what is left over in terms of energy, time and affection. In a solid relationship with similar attitudes that is absolutely fine because it's temporary and for a worthwhile goal.

I have heard about fathers being jealous when a new baby arrives. I can understand that I guess - mother's do tend to get wrapped up in newborns, exhausted and emotionally drained. However I always assumed that jealousy of a baby (who also happens to be their child) is something that would be regarded with embarrassment and shame. Something a man would fight against and certainly not mention seriously to his partner. If he was jealous of his own child he'd do his damndest to sort it out himself and not parade his ego in front of his partner and demand she massage it for him!

Have I been suckered by the myth of the New Man? Do most men really feel as if their infant children are 'in the way' and taking up too much of their partner's time? How can you be jealous of the affection your partner shows to your child and the time and energy she gives them? And what happened to supporting your wife/gf in what is a hard time for her too? When she needs your support and love? When she doesn't need more demands?

blackcurrants
She's not going to answer your questions, she's going to answer questions you haven't asked.

"How would that work? Like a snailshell?"

Bahahahahaha

I would absolutely LOVE it if my daughter wanted to go backpacking around Oz

That wasn't actually the question I asked. I would be happy for my DSs to go backpacking around Australia-they speak English, the culture is similar and I have relatives over there who would be nearer than me in an emergency. (I wouldn't be so keen if they went into the Outback)

I asked if you would be happy if she went off alone on an overland trip to Australia. I wouldn't stop my DSs (I couldn't if they were adults and had the money) but I wouldn't LOVE them to go. The thought of them alone in the Far East etc is scary and I can see me getting very worried if they didn't get in contact and I hadn't heard from them for a few days. I have friends whose DCs have done this-and South America and they were all very relieved when they got home-I don't recall anyone loving it.

You didn't answer university and student accommodation.

You are far more likely to be killed in a car crash than by a partner-people still go in cars.

Yes I do believe in the patriarchy to a certain extent. You can't get rid of thousands of years of history in one fell swoop. It takes time. Society is made up of individuals, everyone needs to do their bit, to add to the whole.

Exactly-it is quite possible to live with men in a non romanitic relationship.
My cousin went off to live in a remote part of the world for a year, she was doing scientific research, so remote the vet had to learn emergency procedures for appendix etc as they were too far from medical assistance. She was one of two women in a team of men. She was quite safe.
Are you really saying that women can sleep in the same building as men but they are only in danger if they move from platonic to romantic?

By and large I like men. Some of my best friends are men

I live with a man, who inspite of his faults, is one of the good guys. He isn't perfect - neither am I . I have 3 DC, two of who are male, and I like them (mostly) and enjoy their company. I am looking forward to watching them grow up to be the sort of men that I want to be with and who will not as individuals exploit and hate women.

None of that negates the fact that men in general are more violent and demanding than women in general. Too many women have to put up with bad partners and being at the very bottom of the heap where things are insecure and scary. And that society has been formed to suit men and to keep women in the places that men want them to be.

I won't teach my DD to be scared of anything. Ever. But I am not going to lie to her and I am not going to sell her the marriage lie - it isn't the only way to be.

I would agree with all of that Ormirian-that seems fair and well balanced.

Does it

I must have got it wrong then....

No-people have got me wrong.I am accused of not listening or not understanding, and yet people are failing to understand my posts.

I can't see anything wrong with your post, if I had a DD I could have written it myself.

1. You know perfectly decent men and you like them.
2. You expect your DSs to be decent men who don't exploit women.

3.Men are more violent and demanding in general 4.Too many women are in scary positions with men. 5.Society was formed to suit men-and still is in many ways. 6.You are not bringing up your DD to be afraid of anything. 7.There is no need for women to get married-or even live with anyone.

There is nothing to argue about. It give balance. You are not feeding your DD scary statistics to say that she shouldn't go down the marriage route if she wants to-merely that there are different ways of looking at it.

I haven't found the balance elsewhere.

Sorry-I can see that you won't actually want to be approved of by me. but an excellent post.

Maybe my mistake was not understanding your OP -it was a thread about a thread and I have no idea which thread it was about! I also lost track of the question!

I don't see anything in Sakura's posts that violently disagree with what OrmIrian has posted.

I doubt if she is feeding her daughter statistics. Probably some kind of Japanese food I should think.

why are you ignoring statistics and facts in favour of anecdotal evidence exoticfruits ?

I know the patriarchy and their henchwomen have never been too keen on hard facts, preferring instead to rely on "feelings" or "hunches" to make laws, but I am presenting you with the cold, hard facts here and I think feminists should take notice of them.

OUr daughters are more likely to be killed by their husbands than anyone else.

Fact.

The posts speak for themselves.

"I don't see anything in Sakura's posts that violently disagree with what OrmIrian has posted."

Neither do I. Hence the I might have expressed myself less forcefully but I am not good at forceful.

exotic - you were arguing that individual men, who might be perfectly nice, could not be responsible for the patriarchy. I was trying to suggest that they can and are - sometimes unwittingly. And the patriarchy feeds back into their sense of entitlement. Hence men who aren't total gits are labelled as 'good fathers' and 'feminist men' when they are simply be normal.

And so are women-they are mothers-they can change DCs attitudes.
Someone said 'why should they?' A good job the suffragettes didn't take that attitude or we would still be without a vote! There are thousands of years of patriarchy and it takes time-the progress in the last 100yrs has phenominal as opposed to what went before. Society is made up of individuals and they all need to do their bit and you get social change. You don't wait for 'them'-people don't willingly give up power!
I suppose I have a problem with it because I was brought up that women were equal, could do anything and didn't have to fear anything (including close emotional relationships with men)
My grandmother was very concerned about her 3 DDs education, she wasn't expecting them to just marry and be taken care of. I was brought up the same-in fact I didn't marry until quite late in terms of average. I certainly never saw it as an aim in life.
The difference in posts is- to quote OrmIrian-'I won't teach my DD to be scared of anything. Ever -which is great -as opposed to sakura who will fill her DD with so much fear that she won't be able to trust a man enough to live with one. My argument is bring up your DD to handle anything and make her own judgements.

And again, a complete misrepresentation of another poster's arguments.

Sakura has never said that she is bringing her daughter up to be fearful.

She has said that she will tell her the facts about the statistical likelihood of where she is in danger and where she isn't.

Try and focus on the arguments that are being actually made Exotic, instead of running away with your own ideas of what you think are being made. I suggest you read the posts more carefully, that way when you argue, you will actually be arguing against things which have been said, rather than against things that have never been said. Tht would make your arguments more interesting and less pointless. HTH.

I have read them very carefully.
Ormirian's post made perfect sense, I agree 100%.
I don't agree with with sakura.
I see a world of difference between the two. If others think they are similar that is their prerogative-we are allowed to come onto a public thread and disagree.

I don't need to argue, that is my opinion. You are quite free to differ.

LOL no you don't need to argue that's true, you are perfectly free to assert random nonsense if you want. That is of course your prerogative but don't expect anyone to take you seriously. OrmIrian has herself said that she doesn't see any distinction between what she ahs posted and what Sakura has posted. You are the only one around here, who believes that they are saying significantly different things. Doesn't that give you pause for thought?

Why does it upset you?
The posts are chalk and cheese to me.

OK exotic. To come back to some points raised earlier in the thread, please read the posts in this thread and then come back and tell me that you don't think women have been conditioned to expect to do more than their fair share of housework and how it's not always easy for women to spot sexism in their own homes.

Well at least I know where it all started now! I am off to bed so will read later. After reading just the first post- so I have no idea where the thread went-it was a man whose mother picked up after him and never made him do his share of housework.

I presume his father never made him do his share of housework either. Oh but of course, men don't have any responsibility for parenting...

I'm not upset. I'm diverted.

I am about to read the rest, but really if women want to make change with their own DCs they have to stop moaning and get on with it. Whatever is the point of saying his father should make him if the end point is he should do it? I don't believe that any DC does as the parent says, they do as they do. In my case it it simple,the father does it- so it is normal. If you have one that doesn't- you stop moaning about the patriarchy and work on the DC.
In my case I was the one at home-and I loved it-bringing up DCs beats any paid employment and no job is as interesting or valuable IMO, therefore I was the hands on person to get them to do it- from very young.

If anyone starts a thread on MN about DCs doing housework people will come on in droves saying 'how mean' they are only DCs. They won't let 8yr olds near kettles in case they scald themselves. Their idea of cooking with a 10yr old is cup cakes, when the 10yr old is fully capable of cooking a meal. They won't leave an 8yr old at home alone, the house will burn down and SS will be called. People won't give their DCs responsibilities and independence -and that is the result. This is DDs too and I have shared with many a woman who was just as bad as that OP! DCs live up, or down, to your expectations. If you think they are irresponsible and can't do anything they surely will be.

Why is the woman picking up after him? I can hear my mother now when I was a DC saying 'this house isn't a hotel' and 'what did your last servant die of?'

My DS is renting a flat. He took on a friend (male) to share the cost. It drove him mad, it was like an explosion of mess when he was in, he, according to my DS, couldn't put the rubbish out without being told that the rubbish needed putting out! He has now moved out to live with his girlfriend-probably a foolish girl who will do it for him. My DS is paying the rent on his own at the moment-he says it isn't worth the hassle.

Anyway-I will read it and 'divert' you with my thoughts.

Herbex- You could pat Exoticfruits on the head, that could make your posts more patronizing.

And I agree with Exotic and don't agree with Sakura so she's not on her own on here.