Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

[Ormirian]

Thread obliquely about a thread. Sorry.

But as I read more I got and then and finally downright .

I have always thought that having children was a joint project. Both parents have as much invested in the child, both care equally about the outcome. I always beleived that was a given. With good decent men anyway.

When children are small they come first. Always. Simple logistics demand it for a start. The parents gets what is left over in terms of energy, time and affection. In a solid relationship with similar attitudes that is absolutely fine because it's temporary and for a worthwhile goal.

I have heard about fathers being jealous when a new baby arrives. I can understand that I guess - mother's do tend to get wrapped up in newborns, exhausted and emotionally drained. However I always assumed that jealousy of a baby (who also happens to be their child) is something that would be regarded with embarrassment and shame. Something a man would fight against and certainly not mention seriously to his partner. If he was jealous of his own child he'd do his damndest to sort it out himself and not parade his ego in front of his partner and demand she massage it for him!

Have I been suckered by the myth of the New Man? Do most men really feel as if their infant children are 'in the way' and taking up too much of their partner's time? How can you be jealous of the affection your partner shows to your child and the time and energy she gives them? And what happened to supporting your wife/gf in what is a hard time for her too? When she needs your support and love? When she doesn't need more demands?

Ha ha ha. "Sort him out". That a woman's job obviously! Yeah like that's going to work with an abusive man!

No-one in an abusive relationship "lets it happen" like some passive, mythical lapdog.

However I am getting the impression that you don't actually want to engage, or listen or answer any questions posed to you. You just want to tell us women how we should behave and it's our own fault if we are abused.

Nice.

If it is that bad why on earth are you still with him? My only argument is sort out your own home before you tell other women how dreadful all men are when the majority are not.

Yes he can complain. Or act like you're going to be unfaithful. Or deprive you of money to go out. Or fake illness so you have to stay. Or go out before you get a chance to get ready. Or say you didn't give him notice even though you did, and start a fight. Or rape you or beat you up to teach you a lesson

You would stay around while he did any of the above?!! If I knew men like this I might agree-thankfully I don't.

The empathy just oozes out of you doesn't it exoticfruits?

Well I'm sorry but I wouldn't do it. Someone would only abuse me once and they wouldn't get second chance. Anything would be better than staying.
I will leave thread -it is outside my experience. He must have shown signs before DCs and why let him?

This thread isn't about you.

Summary of exoticfruits posts on this thread "I don't know any abusive men therefore I don't think they exist. Not really, Oh, and in case abusive men exist (which I don't really believe) it's the woman's fault anyway for putting up with it"

Have I read right here?

Yep, that's what I'm seeing.

To go back to the OP, (Sorry ormirian) I think this is a really interesting idea.

Not sure how relevant my comments are here as I've been a single parent longer than a 'joint' parent (although I do still co parent with XP to an extent) - but it's good to look at men's role in bringing up children.

I don't believe the myth that men are necessarily less interested in their children. XP for example was besotted with DS from the moment he arrived. But then all the tedious grotwork of parenting (cooking, laundry, other housework) was largely left to me.

I think women are often conditioned to accept responsibility for this...and if a man shows any interest in his children or actually looks after them (and why shouldn't he be?) he is praised to the high heavens. You know, what a wonderful Dad, he works so hard etc..whereas women are doing this all the time and not getting praised for it.

Plus it is more 'accepted' when a man walks out on his children. Not that people think its great or a good way to behave, but men aren't vilified for this in the way a woman who does this would be.

I'm glad it's not just me seeing that.

I'm surprised anyone displaying that attitude would post in the feminist section and not expect to have their views challenged/people not to fall in line with their take on things. It displays a certain arrogance, I think.

Yes PrinceH, agree completely. Men are often praised inordinately for doing what they should be doing anyway..parenting their children!

So often it gets divided into mum doing the grotwork/boring things and not being 'fun'..then Dad who is (maybe) more rested from not doing grotwork gets to swoop in and do fun things.

Not sure if I'm expressing myself very well here...!

Yes thats what I mean PrinceH - boring mum vs fun dad.

Summary of exoticfruits posts on this thread "I don't know any abusive men therefore I don't think they exist. Not really, Oh, and in case abusive men exist (which I don't really believe) it's the woman's fault anyway for putting up with it"

Have I read right here?

No you haven't read it right. Abusive men exist (so do abusive women)-however most men are not abusive. If you have one it isn't fair to give all men those charactics. Most men have equal parterships with the woman they love, they bring up DCs together and they are not jealous. I think you get a bit of a skewed view if your relationship isn't like this.

Most abusive or controlling men must show signs before you have DCs. I agree that once you are sucked in it is more difficult to get out and once you have DCs to consider it is even more difficult. However I think that right near the beginning (unless they are cold and calculating) they must have shown signs. No one hits me, no one swears at me, no one stops me from seeing friends or questions what I am doing-they go straight away-there is no excuse and they won't improve.

I don't object to people treating men as if they are the enemy, if they are guilty but most men are not.

Why not discuss parenthood before you have DCs? If you haven't sit down now and talk about strategy. Why should you be the one to have to do the boring things? Make sure he does it too. Go out for the day alone and be the fun one. You can have lots of fun at home with them.

Instead of moaning about heirarchy in general, where it often doesn't exist start with your own situation. You can't tar all men with the same brush, as if there is only one sort.

Exoticfruits either you are being extraordinarily disingenuos, or you are simply not remotely understanding what this thread is about.

And again: " My only argument is sort out your own home before you tell other women how dreadful all men are when the majority are not"

Where has anyone on this thread said all men are dreadful? Nowehre, once again, yo've set up an autn sally to knock down, because your arguemnts are weak.

You are the only person on this thead who has declared how other women should sort out their lives.

And this isn't about other people's relationshisp. Why are you ignoring all the posts which are from women in happy partnerships, who are aruging with you?

Do you really not know how to debate, or are you choosing not to?

I think so PrinceH.

exoticfruits I don't understand how criticising abusive men somehow becomes telling other women what to do and treating men as the enemy.

You are arguing against something which nobody has actually said.

"Just like women are the gatekeepers of sex, they are also the deniers of eating-all-the-sweets, doing-donuts-in-the-car-in-tescos-carpark, staying-up-late etc etc"

OMG prince.. for all the equality I believe that might exist in my relationship I am still the denier of sweets and ice-cream and i'ts really not fair. At. all.

exoticfruits, I said it bears repeating, so I'll repeat it. Women, and that includes you and I, are statistically more likely to be murdered by our husbands than a man on the street. That means single women, or women who live alone (like HerBex?) are statistically less likely to be murdered.

Exceptionism i.e the idea that my husband is different doesn't bear out in the statistics.. Yes your husband might be different, but you can hardly advise other women to get married or live with a man on that basis because if your husband is one of the good ones then there are more badduns out there for other women to meet.

I won't be advising my daughter to marry. I'll give her the DV and wife-murder statistics. I want her to know that she'll be in more danger from aggression if she lives with a man than if she lives alone. Women have got to show their daughter these things. Instead we have LIES in the media about men being women's protectors when nothing could be farther from the truth!

Let us know whether your advice is successful-I very much doubt it.

Men and women are people-some are good, some are bad-they are all individuals and you have to take them on an individual basis.

Some men don't do their fair share of housework etc or are jealous of their DCs, but you can't surmise that the majority of men are like that.
A lot of men like football-there are still a whole lot around who have no interest in football. I can't see the point in generalising.

exoticfruits I don't understand how criticising abusive men somehow becomes telling other women what to do and treating men as the enemy.

You are arguing against something which nobody has actually said.

I was trying to work out whether this was true, without re reading all my posts and then I find that I didn't make it up, Sakura thinks all men are aggressive and that her DD is in danger if she lives with a man. Not something I would tell my daughter, if I had one. All she needs to do is be friends first, get to know his family and friends. There is as much chance of my DSs being aggressive to women, as the River Thames freezing over in June.

OK -not all men-but enough to try and scare her DD into never committing to one, enough to have a loving relationship.

"Let us know whether your advice is successful-I very much doubt it."

What do you mean? You mean my daughter is pre-programmed to get married? If so, then why does the P (the patriarchy) pull out all the stops when it comes to convincing women that marriage is good for them? IF it was so natural, the male-run media wouldn'T have to promote it in every single commercial, programme, magazine drama and blah blah. They wouldn't have to wheel out the propaganda in all the malestream newspapers.

The fact that patriarchy tries so damn hard to convince little girls that marriage and searching for the one is a Good Thing, tells me that they secretly suspect women would choose to live without men, if they had the means.

And in fact in Japan this is exactly what is happening. Women are not marrying and the government is panicking because they're refusing to have children either, and have been for quite some time.

So I think a little push in the right direction would be all it would take for my daughter to see this institution for what it really is