Patriarchy and the Personal

[IseeGraceAhead]

I rarely use the word "patriarchal" in real life: I say "Male-dominated" or "male-directed" kind of thing.

As a personal project, I'm assessing my own beliefs about what it means To Be A Woman. I'm startled at how much of my self-perception - and perception of women in general - is patriarchal in origin. I don't mind if nobody joins in, but thought it could be interesting if some do :)

Hairy legs! Some time back, two women next to me were trying on the same shoes as me. They had hairy legs. I was so shocked, I shocked myself - I really hadn't noticed that I'd come to assume all women went around with hairless legs. I grew mine. God, the horror! I kept looking at my legs, thinking "They look like a man's!"

I kept it up, until I became used to the fact my legs are hairy - not like a man's legs: like my legs. Which are hairy. I still depilate when I have to wear a skirt, though; I'm aware of the shock-n-horror my real legs would provoke.

How much time & money does it take to remove 'unsightly' body hair? Over a lifetime, how much resource is that, which a man doesn't have to lay out (and we could save)? WHY are we supposed to take it all off?? What purpose does it serve?

Can you give an example Grace?

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High-heeled shoes :) High heels alter the posture, thrusting the pelvis forwards and arching the back, which pushes out the chest. They visually elongate the leg and enhance its curves. It's not difficult to see why men like high heels on women. Add in the "hobbling" effect of heels (I'm 50+, I'm walking on the evidence!) and echoes of foot-binding; you don't need an analyst to call them patriarchal.

But why do we associate them with power and professionalism? Why does Deborah Meaden wear heels on Dragons' Den? What's so professional about forcing your body into a posture of sexual display; what's powerful about shoes which make it more difficult to run, jump & kick??

:) Patience. Take it any way you want it! I've got HUNDREDS of things in my workbook ...

Iseegraceahead - I dont shave mine but no one notices them. I cant even see them myself unless I get extremely close to a light eg put a lamp about 3 inches above my legs.

I dont ever have to bother with anything like that. I do my armpits but never the rest. Whereas my husband has dark hair he spends £10 on those stupid gillette things because his face is so course as he has dark hair and the orther ones give him shaving fast. He is always shaving and using loads of money on them.

This all depends on whether you have dark or light hair really not if you are a man or woman.

'Over a lifetime, how much resource is that, which a man doesn't have to lay out (and we could save)?'

Have you seen the price of mens gillette!!!!

I wear heels to give the illusion of height because I'm little

But no-one is shocked by a man who doesn't shave & no-one questions their sexuality . Your dh could stop shaving tomorrow & it wouldn't bother anyone but him (& maybe you). If I walked around with my legs all covered in my natural thick black hair I'd definitely be making a statement!

sunny2010 a man's facial hair rarely provokes the reaction which a woman's hairly legs/armpits/moustache (and very bushy eyebrows do).

Do you have very light hair on your legs?

What about bikini line?

(TBH my "annoyance" re hair removal for woman being standard is considerably lowered by the fact that all the men I know shave their faces.)

Grace - good topic. For me one thing for your list is male politicians - it is easy to fall into the mainstream media's trap of classifying female politicians as shrill/lightweight - and indeed to compare them to the male politicians. If it was 50/50 then there would be focus on them as individuals.

My instant reaction to you, Sunny, was "Ooh, lucky you!" But - erm, why? The only reason I envy you for not having leg-hairs like mine is that I (still, gah) find leg hairs undesirable on a woman. My real legs are the real me, not the waxed/Veeted/plucked/shaved ones. Most women would envy you, instead of feeling proud of our real legs; as though the hairs we naturally grow are some kind of deformity (unless they're fine, blond and downy.)

Gillette's feminine shavers are the same price as their masculine ones. And legs are a much bigger area than a face, so you have to use more product. I'm convinced I learned the origins of feminine shaving in my marketing module - commercially-prompted, of course - but haven't been able to find the very good, true, story I was looking for. I've found an American one. Iirc, an English marketing wizard came up with the idea earlier than 1915, but that's not the point. It still boils down to the fact that we've been persuaded out own bodies are disgusting, in order to sell more product. This was not only the brilliant idea of a man, but is perpetuated by men - and I've bought it!

'sunny2010 a man's facial hair rarely provokes the reaction which a woman's hairly legs/armpits/moustache (and very bushy eyebrows do).

Do you have very light hair on your legs?

What about bikini line?'

My husband wasnt allowed to go to work if he didnt shave daily. He got sent home for it once.

I cant stand my husbands face when he doesnt shave and always mention it personally. Its scratchy if they dont shave everyday for sex yuk.

I dont shave my bikini line. I do trim it down but then so does my husband. I wouldnt want it in my face when I was down there. If it wasnt trimmed I wouldnt go anywhere near it!

My husband gets carried away with shaving, preening though. You cant get him away from the mirror somedays it makes me want to kill him. It makes us late for everything.

'
Gillette's feminine shavers are the same price as their masculine ones. And legs are a much bigger area than a face, so you have to use more product. I'm convinced I learned the origins of feminine shaving in my marketing module - commercially-prompted, of course - but haven't been able to find the very good, true, story I was looking for. '

Its £9 for 4 for my husbands. He has had to stay in some weekends whilst I go clubbing as we both get a tenner each. He has to waste his on that. I think hes mental I would just get the poundland ones. I bought 30 for a £1 the other day for my armpits. Gillette are ridiculous prices.

I would never shave my legs its expensive and no one ever notices my leg hair anyway. My husband was having sex with me for a month before he even noticed and he only noticed when I pointed it out. They are long though lol.

Hairy legs and armpits are a real bugbear of mine (with myself). I wish I didn't want to shave them! I hate it in myself, but I have very dark hair...and I just can't bring myself to let it grow. I actually like my legs smooth...but I don't know if that's because I subconsciously think it makes me more womanly, or just because I like the feel of it like my DH prefers to have a clean shaven face!

I love it that I don't wear make up; or high heels unless it's just a nice pair of shoes that I happen to like. I mostly wear flatties.

I don't know what else I do personally as a result of the patriarchy! I'm going to read others things with interest though, and see if I can identify with any of them!

Ooh! Just thought of one! inability to do 'man things'. I find that I have to remind myself that I am perfectly capable of putting up shelves/doing car things etc. which irritates me. The only things I can't do are things that require more strength than I have or more height! But I do have to remind myself of it.

Also can I add the mans bushy eyebrows thing. My husband had some of those old style open and close type of tweezers that sort of had a handle. I lost them and he practically had a mental breakdown over it. I lost them in June and he has had me search the net on all the beauty sites, I have been to every beauty counter and shop in my town and every town we have visited in the last 2 months.

Trust me these things bother men. He says he cant handle having a monobrow but cant use normal tweezers but is too shy to go salon!! He is driving me up the wall about it. He uses clinique, goes gym, uses concealer, he is obsessed with ironing, gel his hair, shaves and all that type of rubbish. All his mates do, and my younger brother and all his mates. It drives me insane! He has got a lot less annoying since we had kids cause before I had to lie about what time he needed to be ready as I would be ready years before he would and be getting drunk and playing on the pc!

It's a fair point, sunny2010, about some men being required to shave their faces. Patriarchal manipulation doesn't apply only to women! Just quite a lot more so.

tabouleh, you're dead right about perceptions of female politicians as weak - it extends into business, as well. If a woman makes her point as powerfully as a man, she's overbearing. If she appeals to the emotions, she's whiny. Outside of academia, it's rare to hear a woman's opinion described as 'weighty' - or a man's as 'oversensitive'. These things are changing, I believe, but the woman=weak paradigm is still used to put women down all the time.

IseeGraceAhead - My husband was always getting in trouble for shaving his face in military training. He always used to moan that the boys had to have their heads shaved and the girls could have whatever hair they wanted. As I said my husband is pretty vain sometimes so he was gutted about having his head shaved as his hair is his pride and joy!

As he had dark hair he would shave and end up with a 5 o clock shadow in the afternoon and then when inspection came round he got picked out and screamed at, sent back to block etc. He said it wasnt fair compared to the lads with blonde hair which is true really but its not really a gender thing its just whether you are lucky enough to be fair haired or not.

With beauty there are loads of things the other way round as well. I think it just bothers some people more than others. I always think I look nice without much effort, but I dont know if that is because I am conceited or deluded somedays lol.

Yep, LackingInspiration, it's the having to remind yourself! And then taking other people's probable views into consideration ...

Makeup is no longer a requirement at work, I've noticed (unless you're a beauty consultant, natch) and I don't feel its existence is a problem in itself. Both men & women are able to use cosmetics either to enhance or alter their appearance - it's fun, imo. Until last month, it had been decades since anyone assumed I was makeup-free for political reasons. Then somebody asked me if I'd come out in a hurry! So my jury's still out on this one: do women still feel they MUST paint their face, or are all those expensive advertisements now just selling us harmelss fun?

Sunny, try looking at it another way - How many things can you think of, which a man MUST do because WOMEN find it disgusting if he doesn't? Don't get sidetracked by things like leaving the loo seat up; I mean stuff about who he is like being hairless, speaking softly, walking a certain way, etc.

Thinking a bit more about makeup. I have two different approaches to it: There's the makeup I put on because people will expect it, and makeup I do almost as play. With the second one, I'll spend hours shading, blending and sticking - skills I learned from women's magazines (a huge subject in themselves!) When I was younger I felt I had to do the whole artistry bit before heading out of the house. Isn't that odd? That I felt it wasn't okay to show the world my real face?

Grace - was make up a requirement at some workplaces!?

I don't not wear make up for political reasons, but because I can't be bothered, can't justify the expense, and I'm already bloody stunning without it!

But I feel proud that I don't even think about make up - it bemuses me! And I wish I felt the same way about leg/armpit hair.

'Sunny, try looking at it another way - How many things can you think of, which a man MUST do because WOMEN find it disgusting if he doesn't? Don't get sidetracked by things like leaving the loo seat up; I mean stuff about who he is like being hairless, speaking softly, walking a certain way, etc.'

Personally I am very picky. I like men who have certain hairstyles, certain clothes styles. They have to go gym or like exercise and I dont like it if men are overweight especially not beer bellies. I like them to be slim build but toned and dont like bigger built men. I do like men who have a certain size penis or there is at least a minimum I would consider for long term dating. My pet hate is bad eyebrows on men in general. I like men who take care of their skin eg facemasks, clarifying lotion, moistruriser. I dont like men with not moisturised hands especially if they have a manual job and I dont like men who dont shave, cant stand tashs, beards or them dodgy line beards or long side burns. Dont like men with piercings and if it is tattoos cant be on show and need to be something I have preapproved. If they got it before I met them I need to agree with them and they have to be black. I also like it when men trim their pubes but not too much because it looks weird.

That is a quite long list but the way I look at it. I dont care for money, job or status as some women do so I am allowed to be picky about certain things.

Also cant stand men with hairy chests and wouldnt go out with someone with one unless they removed it. This is a biggy and that might offend people but it is just yuk. Yeah I know that makes me a bit of a double standard as I have hairy legs but I cant help it I just cant stand looking at it, especially those men who have it coming up over an unbuttoned polo shirt . That is just disgusting.

Sunny, the difference is that your dh chooses to do all that stuff, there are very fewjobs where men must shave. Women are expected to do it and comment is passed if they don't. Unless they are lucky like you and people won't notice if they don't shave. My dh does absolutely no grooming except having a shower once a day & a shave once a week and no-one, including me, gives a rats arse. He smells alright and that's about the limit of expectations on him! I don't know if this is an age thing though as I was horrified when I took a bunch of year 12s on a trip away to discover that theboys all had hair straighteners!

Reading back those lists it probably makes me seem a bit shallow. Its all the truth though but that doesnt mean I dont value people that dont look like that it just means I wouldnt want to get with them. I think it is ok to think like that as long as you still are nice to people who dont fit in to what you like and just because I need all this in a man doesnt mean that other people might like the complete opposite.

I have friends that like massively big built blokes and I think no way, not in a million. They probably think the same about guys I like. Doesnt make us wrong and sexual attraction is a funny thing, you cant help what you like and dislike.

'Sunny, the difference is that your dh chooses to do all that stuff, there are very fewjobs where men must shave. Women are expected to do it and comment is passed if they dont''

When I met him he had never done his eyebrows, and I introduced him to clinique and stuff like getting him to wear concealer when he has spots etc. It is only since he met me he has done a lot of things, he always liked grooming but I gave him all the tips to improve what he did/used etc. If he doesnt shave his face I call him Osama! Its only a joke though.