Patriarchy and the Personal

[IseeGraceAhead]

I rarely use the word "patriarchal" in real life: I say "Male-dominated" or "male-directed" kind of thing.

As a personal project, I'm assessing my own beliefs about what it means To Be A Woman. I'm startled at how much of my self-perception - and perception of women in general - is patriarchal in origin. I don't mind if nobody joins in, but thought it could be interesting if some do :)

I remember telling my nursery teacher I was fed up with Janet & John because John got to do the interesting stuff! She said being a girl didn't mean I had to identify with Janet - bless her; that was cool for a teacher in 1959! I chose to "be" Spot the Dog

Folklore tales featured VERY large in my childhood. I'm currently applying transactional analysis to my family (and myself) - fairy stories crop up all over the place. I think stories must impact greatly on the childhood identity: are you happy with the messages conveyed by contemporary kids' stuff? How do you think they impacted you?

Grace - I am liking your project the more I hear about it.

You could set up a blog "Grace's Project:What Does It Mean To Be a Woman!".

Re films - do you know about the Bechdeltest?

Think of a film:

(1) it has to have at least two women in it, who
(2) who talk to each other, about
(3) something besides a man

There's not too many of them about, .

I think we need more of these "tests" - they are simple yet thought provoking and not too controversial for a dinner party convo or perhaps a FB status?

I think you'd like the research into the effects of intro of cable TV into Polynesia I think it was - increase in eating disorders = decrease in girl's self esteem....

Cultural "norms" run so deep - I think we have to hold onto the fact that it is worth examining - even if we are not sure why as we never know what we may find.

On the FGM thread I linked to an organisation in Africa which through education of human rights/discussions has led to whole communities deciding to abandon FGM.

There must be so many things that women as a group do because other women do and not because they intrinsically want to....

Yep, Dahl's tales are just brilliant, aren't they - all of human life is there, looking as funny as we do! The Grimms' tales are based on stories that appear in all cultures (like mythologies, they encapsulate common behaviours) and it's interesting to see which details changed from one country to another ... I'll see if Cornelia Funke's on youtube :)

You should see Eric Berne's interpretation of Riding Hood. It's about the grandfather's sexual abuse of the mother (yes, it does make sense!)

I'm pinching one of his techniques, and applying it to Sleeping Beauty. This is my first time, so it might come out wonky:-

I am the princess: I must become unconscious at puberty. I will then wait for the Prince, with whom I must have sex. It doesn't matter how long I have to wait, because time will stand still. I'll just stay young until a boy comes for sex.

I am the Prince: I want that girl's riches so badly, I will risk my life. My mission is successful - because the magic spell has worn off. I get rich; I get laid. I didn't actually do that myself: never mind, it looks like I did. And I tried.

I am the hedge: I'm so hard and prickly, any boy who tries to get through me will die. I wall off the Princess so she can't get close to anybody. When my boss says it's okay for her to have sex, I'll let a boy through.

I am the wicked fairy: I've got a thing about eternal youth, I'm afraid. I've told the Princess she's too damn beautiful to have a life, so the girl's quite willing to put herself on hold while I make sure time stands still. In this way I get an extra 100 years ruling the roost! I'll have to wake her up eventually - then she'll still be 15. What the hell, I'll still be 35 and I'll have accomplished quite a bit in that time.

I am the King: Women, huh? My little girl's decided to become Princess Pretty Vacant for the foreseeable, all she does is sleep. Wicked's on good form, though, she's scorching in bed and seems happier since the daughter zoned out. All in all, things are good. I guess Princess will sort herself out and get married one day, so I've put half a kingdom aside for the wedding. Has anybody seen my golf bag?

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Tabouleh, thanks. I like the film test!
I'm spending FAR too much time on this (well, it's important to me) ... I had no idea this project would turn out to be so vast! Can't help finding it interesting though

So, according to my interpretation (which is not the only possible one):

• The young man is not in charge of his own destiny. He thinks he is, but is really acting according to the "Mother's" manipulations. He is expected to go for it, though - and to keep on going, even if he gets ripped to shreds.
• The young woman must stay young at all costs. She's expected to remain mute, pretty and to keep others away until the "Mother" says so. She must give herself to a man Mother deems suitable. She's not in charge of her own destiny, either.
• The older woman will do anything to stay young. She tries to hold back time, so as to retain her power over the Man who holds all the resources.
• The older Man in this story is a background figure, sentimental but ineffectual. He does, however, own his 'kingdom'.

This story doesn't reflect my own childhood (my old man was anything but ineffectual). I do identify with the impenetrable barrier, and my youth-obsessed mother did impress on me the importance of virginity. Come to think of it, the character I've given the King echoes my maternal grandfather ... back to Riding Hood, then

Do you think Sleeping Beauty taught you anything about being a young woman, and meeting young men?

My feminist take on this particular bit of popular mythology: If the "Mother" had her own kingdom, she wouldn't need to be so anxious about keeping her looks to keep the Man (and his money). If she were less anxious on the sex-appeal front, she wouldn't need to hold the daughter back from playing life her own way. That would set the girl free to seek her own fortune and lover(s), thus saving many young men from the pain of running into her impenetrable defences. The young men could give up being have-a-go heroes, and get on with their own lives.

I would of argued with the professor. I argued for days so they didnt make me take time off. I just stalked all the tutors until someone took my side. I am very annoying . I went to every tutor and sat outside the rooms and begging and pleaded outside where they drank coffee, when they were in the cafe, when they were doing their photocopying and outside their office with see through windows and said it would be too hard until everyone got so pissed off one of them just gave in lol.

In the end when they came round to my way of thinking they were supportive in the end. One male tutor said I was a nutter and mental but whatever. I am sorry for your experiences butterfly but you should always always kick off if someone wont listen.

'Most people I know have been groped, flashed at, had stuff shouted at them, random men doing all sorts of weird stuff. But hardly any of it gets reported. That is because women are taught to put up with it - if it's relatively minor they are taught to "laugh it off" a la sunny, and if they don't they are derided for not having a sense of humour.

I dont think that is true when anyone usually says it I take it as a compliment because it usually is but if someone annoys me and acts aggressive I will be different. I once got taken to the police station but they let me off in the end, for whacking a man over the head with a alcopop bottle because he put his hand up my skirt at a party then pushed this man I knew. He was acting aggressive if he had just whistled or said alright love then fine but he was actually kicking off so different kettle of fish to me. If someone touches you then you should kick off but if they just compliment you then thats fine to me.

Butterfly - so there was no one above the professor in the whole uni. What about Student Union? What about student services? Thje counsellor? etc. He couldnt of been the only man to talk about it in the whole uni. You had a dental issue you would of had prove of that. How on earth could he have chucked you off?

If you were off your head on drugs for the first exam then she had to take you for retakes or you could do her for discrimination anyway. The uni would have to listen and the women would of had to mark you fairly. Surely there would of been a second and third marker?

If then you still thought she was wrong you could of taken it to an external verifier and then they would of independently looked at it. My friend had to do this when she was told that some of her work was a certain mark and she thought the man hated her. There is a process you can go through to make sure its fair.

All is people can still have a problem with males for other things. My brother nearly got chucked off his college course because his tutor didnt like him. He got sent home saying he was suspended for something minor that wasnt totally his fault. My mum got him back on because she rang him about a million times, went in to see him etc until in the end until the tutor apologised to her!

I know where I get it from my mum will always kick off about everything if there is a problem. When I was younger I used to be like mum plllease dont do this now. and she would be going off and one saying no im doing it, this isnt good enough rah rah rah. I suppose I just do it because as I got older I realised why she did.

Whilst I am not trivialising yours or graces comments I am just saying I doubt its the patriachys fault I just think some people just discrminate against everything and its your thing to fight it. I was in the military and loads of men thought women shouldnt be in there, especially in training. They used to tell us so when we were doing by your bed inspections screaming in our faces. So what fuck them I couldnt give a rats ass what they thought of me being in there. Just smile and nod and prove yourself.

I will add there are 100s of times I have seen men thought of as idiots and discrminated against. A man worked at my daughters old nursery once and loads of the mums pulled their kids out in case he was a 'paedo'.That would never happen to a woman and imagine how embarassed that poor man was living in the area, seeing all the parents around. I dont know how they dare be so rude

I have seen and heard of loads of discrimation like that to male teachers etc and it puts loads of men off doing it and has made many quit. One of my tutors had some awful tales of it.

Do you think Sleeping Beauty taught you anything about being a young woman, and meeting young men'

No not in the slightest. I would not lie back and wait for a man to pull me. If I wanted them I would go after them and always be the loudest, noisest party animal. If the men liked what they saw then great if not then whatever. I had loads of sex before I got married and will tell my daughter that if she wants to she should go for it before you settle down and spread your wild oats as such.

I was getting married but my mum and dad then had a panic and thought what if it didnt last so I went down town and booked a flight and eloped to the Caribbean!! I dont listen to a word anyone says and my parents expected it because I got drunk on wine and said I am running off to the Caribbean so theres nothing you can do its booked bye! Then didnt ring them then they came round and started giving me money and wishing us well.

They should make that in to a fairy tale

They should, Sunny

Hey, don't worry about tangents; it's an open thread and it is about 'the personal'. I'm interested in TBE's experience and your response, Sunny. I was literally bullied into a breakdown by an insane narcissistic boss. The entire organisation was run by bullying; I had no ecourse. Oh, sod it, here it is. The fact that I stayed in the job - I felt "I could handle it" - is a symptom of my upbringing, which taught me to be bullied. My family was a patriarchal dictatorship in the literal sense, so this is all bound up with my reasons for wanting to unpick the mechanisms. The fact remains that ALL women were sexually harassed in the company I wrote about. Men were not bullied, or 'only' bullied a bit, if they joined "The Lads": becoming bottom-feeders in the abuse hierarchy. Men who didn't want to play were forced to leave.

It doesn't matter how feisty you are in such an environment: they will damage all women (it's a bonding activity for them) and get rid of any men that won't join in. There are similar stories in the section I linked to.

Wasnt the reason they started bullying you because you told on the woman though? Also wasnt the woman the one that said you had never reported it?

D'you mean me? No, my boss was a man. The other woman in my story is the one who took my place on Mad Boss's team - I supported her complaint against Mad Boss and my own treatment then got even worse: punishment for whistle-blowing.

Did you seriously never come across any of this kind of thing in the military?

Also as you had told on a few of them then it was probably likely they would gang together and turn on you. That means more supervisors would of been told on so they would of wanted to get you out so it didnt effect them. Because there were more supervisors everyone would of took their side so they could still get promoted/take your job/stay in the good books so I do think this isnt fair but it seems they all just wanted to stay out of trouble. I dont think from that actual situation it was because you were a woman I think it is because you telling would of got them in trouble.

You're very sweet. And naive.