Patriarchy and the Personal

[IseeGraceAhead]

I rarely use the word "patriarchal" in real life: I say "Male-dominated" or "male-directed" kind of thing.

As a personal project, I'm assessing my own beliefs about what it means To Be A Woman. I'm startled at how much of my self-perception - and perception of women in general - is patriarchal in origin. I don't mind if nobody joins in, but thought it could be interesting if some do :)

Heli- that trans-Atlantic sailing expedition sounds amazing. How long will it take?

I think the thing about being "touched by the patriarchy" is that whilst we are all women, we are all unique too, and we've all had markedly different experiences in terms of the men we have been brought up by, been in relationships with, had as colleagues, friends and bosses. Some of us have had far better experiences than others. I dont believe that men are all mysogynistic twats as that has not been my personal experience.

Re the fact that I dont really feel "impacted" by the media's portrayal of what a woman looks/acts like, I think some people just have low suggestibility/ abstract uptake- I am a total failure at hypnosis for example - or it could be that I was brought up to be very unmaterialistic- our family, despite being quite well off, were always real late adopters when anything new came out and we only ever got "stuff" for Christmas and b'days - or it could be that my mother was very anti-women's magazines and very adamant that "shopping is not a hobby - now off you go to the tennis/hockey/swimming/ athletics club". It could be loads of things.

Heli, what you are doing is brilliant, keep us posted! I think I must look at life a bit differently because I think what you are doing is perfectly normal in the sense that I don't understand why any adult would do something they don't want to do (get married/have career/have kids etc, and you'd be totally mad if you did. What is remarkable is that you have the self-belief and the determination to do it rather than it staying a pipe dream, and not settle for second-best.

If you came on here and told us about it and you had kids though there would be a 'very vigourous debate' though.

Im sorry IseeGraceahead - I cant believe you have actually worked in Marketing and then are so heavily influeneced by it yourself that it has made you so insecure about things. The whole point of marketing is to sell products if you realise that then I seriously dont understand why that had such a big influence on yourself.

'The fact that women (in general) have taken this directive to heart, such that most of us believe we need to be glossy, toned, etc, is testament to the overarching success of a multi-layered campaign to make us 'need' to appear sexually desirable. So as to make money for the corporations with male CEOs.'

This is their own fault you do as much as you want to do. The only reason my husband does things like clinique etc as as soon as he found out that it gets rid of your spots and how clean it made your face feel he liked it. He likes concealer to cover his spots to look better. It isnt because he wants to be some greek adonis or everyone will hate him.

I havent read a magazine like that since I was about 15. They arent exactly very exciting as a whole are they? I only liked them when I was young because they did actually teach me loads about sex and they did help me at my young age to expect and achieve orgasms with men. Other than that most of it is a load of crap. I am sorry but I cant believe so many grown women take them literally surely women around you are your inspiration? Women that have worked, have stayed at home, are doing 100s of things everyday. I dont look at the media and think better not climb a mountain because I am a mum and someone judges me. If you want to do it then go for it. If you think the things that are stopping you is some random articles in a magazine purely intended to sell you something then that is a bit ridiculous.

I havebought nice outfits, make up and some brands but my life is defined by them.I have seen women in real life achieve great things and there are a lot I admire who have come across serious adversity. I admire famous women like Silla Carron (look her up shes a real hero to me) and Jane Tomlinson. I admire people that I have met that have achieved great things changing lives. I know a 17 year old girl that found out she had MS instead of getting her down she has gone on to become the South West Coordinator for a National MS charity. She has made loads of money for them, raised awareness, set up support groups etc. She has been in lots of those types of magazines but I suppose some people are so obsessed with looking at barriers to their lives they dont notice articles ike this. She has done all that for a charity at a young age whilst having chemo at a young age and she does that and has a career! She is a hero to me. There are 1000s of women heros out there in everyday life I am lucky to know a lot of them.

Things are in your path but you have to overcome them. I joined the military at 18 and it is 1 female to 9 males. I didnt let that deter me and gave as good as I got. That came from someone who is 5 foot 3 and 7 stone. I saw women in there do all sort of 'mans' things but they didnt let being a woman hold them back. I have seen women climb mountains, abseil, rock climb, be winched out a helicopter, jump ut of a plane, do marathons, long bike rides etc. They dont sit there and think I am a mum and a woman will someone judge me? I am not saying there isnt pressure from media but take it as what it is. Women can achieve and do well if they want to be CEOs go for it.

When I got pregnant I was 5 months gone when I started my second degree year. Nearly EVERYONE told me I wouldnt be able to do it, would need to take a gap, you will feel different once the child is born etc. I was set up to fail but I showed them all I was there on my due date and I didnt have 1 day off. I had a ten day break and that was only because it was half term. You have to listen to yourself and not others. Dont worry that someone says dont bottle feed, mums dont work full time, Lazy women stay at home, all women have to look like this. Its a load of rubbish different people want and look for different things.

I have men who love women who are size 18+ they think anyone below that is 'too skinny'. I know men the opposite and every which way in between. We all have preferences and no one looks like Cheryl Cole or whoever when they get out of bed in the morning.

This isnt meant to be lectury but how much is you putting your own limitations on yourself and how much is the patriachy? I think with Isnts case for instance yes it may be bad that she was getting paid less but a lot of companies pay people less who do the same job. Even my husbands has had jobs that do that and it is 100% men and they all do the same. They arent supposed to know each others pay but they do and they have been in to fight it before because of differences and for bonuses etc. Companies do what they think they can get away with and they want the money at the end of the day. It is prevelant in a lot of sectors for men and women and women need to be forthright out there and bring it up. It isnt like the days where you had a baby and you were forced to quit, if you feel like you have to do it because of societal expectations or how your husband/family things it should be then fight it. You dont have to quit it is still a choice without you regret it or not.

helibepsinoph - I got married at 20 and my husband was 19. I had 'Why you getting married. When I said I was people said WHy,thats weird, How strange to do it so young, Are you pregnant? What made you want to do that?, Wont be long til the divorce getting married at this age' Everyone treated me like I was a maniac. My husband had it worse people his age made out as if he was mentally ill or something!

All I am trying to say is often someone has a problem with what you do whether you have a baby and getting married young or do it when your older, or not at all. They say these things and sometimes I think they either dont think or have such preconcieved ideas that it has to be one way. It really makes me sad when I see women (or men) who havent got the confidence to go against the grain. If you want it then go for it.

'yy -even chryl cole doesn't look lke chryl cole in the morning!'

Exactly dont people see that Cheryl Cole is a lovely, pretty girl but she got cheated on by Ashley and she has admitted she worries about what she looks like. If you start thinking like that you will never be satisfied there will always be prettier, cleverer people. However beautiful or if you are a celebrity you are going to get old or ill etc. If you concentrate solely on looks to the detriment of everything else then what will you have?

We do have some girls who are like this in our town they go out, stand there with one drink scanning the room, going in the toilet doing their make up 50 times. Everyone I know, both men and women, say how boring. They honestly look like they are trying to hard, I have people like that on facebook and I feel sorry for them, they look perfect but are constantly writing statuses about why me? Why do I get dumped like this? Why do people treat me this way? It goes to show that looking perfect isnt the key to your happiness. Thats why people who have cosmetic surgery or lose loads of weight often dont feel any happier about themselves because its how you feel inside.

Do you want to look back on your life and think I missed all those opportunities like dancing or letting go. Say not going in the water cause you hadnt shaved your legs or you got wet hair, not rock climbing because someone looked at you above them and thought you had a big ass etc. I am not trivialising how anyone feels but I find things like this so frustrating.

You say you're not trivialising how anyone feels, Sunny, but I feel you are. You seem to be suggesting I should just forget about a lifetime's worth of all-round conditioning. As I've already said my identity is coloured by this conditioning, that would mean forgetting about who I am and being uninterested in what made me so! I haven't based my life choices on what I believe 'the patriarchy' has told me to do - not consciously, at least. Unconsciously, I have done. I'm interested in deconstructing this unconscious process. It seems you aren't. Fair enough, but you seem to be saying I'm completely wrong and should be like you - which may well be true, though not realistic.

You have girls in your town, and Facebook friends, who display such contemptible attitudes as mine. That would seem to show these undermining influences are at work, even among your generation. So I'm not quite seeing what you're trying to prove here?

That's horrendous, TBE. It was a form of victimisation! You must have been furious.

Heli - forgot to add my cheer to your chorus! How fantastic! It's true, you don't have to query 'the rules' out loud - simply doing your own thing is enough, if it's out-of-pattern. This is nowhere near as bad as it was in the 70s or the 50s but it's real nonetheless.

I think that, when discussing young women's behaviours & attitudes (and Sunny) we tend to forget the upside of patriarchy - it favours the young, charming woman. I'm aware of the multitude of things I 'got away with' as a young women, and favours that were granted me. I was aware of it at the time, but persistently pushed that thought to the back of my mind. It was nicer to believe my adventures were all thanks to my independent spirit, rather than my charms

To a large extent, I suspect, this encourages us to internalise the limiting beliefs. I need to work this out a bit more in my head ...

Oh, TBE :(

You picked the right analogy there! This is, indeed, part of my redefinition process - which very much includes a fucked-up childhood. Analysis, however, is different from blame. This is what most people don't get about recovery work. You can't fix something until you understand what broke. On the topic of this thread, patriarchal thinking pervades general (societal) beliefs & expectations about women. If I don't shine a bright light on this, and attempt to see how it affects my daily life, then I can't see what I want to change.

The more I work on this, the stronger my conviction becomes. My first post was about a detail - leg hair. Sunny's immediate response was to tell me she doesn't epilate because she doesn't need to (ie, her legs are a better fit for the 'ideal' than mine). Subsequent posts, form other women with 'normal' leg hair, reinforced the fact that we all KNOW what the ideal is: every woman who doesn't epilate feels defiant.

If patriarchal values have no influence, what are they defying?

But who is "the patriarchy"? Isnt it rather like the Wizard of Oz where you whip back the curtain expecting this big, all powerful foe and all you see is a group of ad execs huddled around a table - one of them saying "if we can get them to bleach their anuses we can make millions"

The more I think about it, the more I think "the Patriarchy" is a straw man (or woman, in the interests of equality!)

tmmj I agree with you but the people I worry about with these pervasive messages are the children, teens and young women who are often less well placed to spot the messages, shrug them off and ignore them.

TBH I suspect the pressure to conform is less (as a woman) when you get older anyway - the worst age for having all teh advertising aimed at you, peer pressure, and general hassle from men is about 14 to 25 and once you're out of that it all calms down a bit. So in a way the fact that I am totally relaxed (well more or less) at 36 is as much to do with society not expecting as much of, or being as interested in the physical appearance of 36 year old women. I mean random men harldy ever comment on me as I walk past now, with the children. When I was a teenager I was on a constant alert for whatever might be said next. Having said that, many women have internalised the messages that they receive when they're younger, and there is increasing pressure to look a certain way/fight ageing etc even as we age. So it's getting worse all around I think.

The other thing that I would say is an effect of patriarchy ie the male privilege in our society is that girls and women are pretty much open to various forms of sexual abuse and that very rarely do they report it.

Most people I know have been groped, flashed at, had stuff shouted at them, random men doing all sorts of weird stuff. But hardly any of it gets reported. That is because women are taught to put up with it - if it's relatively minor they are taught to "laugh it off" a la sunny, and if they don't they are derided for not having a sense of humour. If it is more serious they are taught to think that it is their fault and to feel guilty, and in all but the most outrageous circumstances, do not report it and in many cases never ever tell anyone. They are taught to keep their mouths shut.

For me this is the thing that brought me to feminism in the first place and it makes it pretty obvious that there is something going on between men and women - that men can do what they want sexually to women, and it is widely accepted and condoned at one end of the scale, and ignored at the other. It's not good, is it. It just isn't.

B&T: The fact that most of us believe we need to be glossy, toned, etc, is testament to the overarching success of a multi-layered campaign to make us 'need' to appear sexually desirable. So as to make money for the corporations with the male CEOs.

"The patriarchy" is shorthand for this, and all the other chains of influence like it.

TBE :) - I do find it helps to be challenged. People can keep on asking me what point I'm trying to prove; the answer is none! I want a discussion - you know, an exploration. Challenges contribute. Saying I'm Wrong won't alter it a bit, though I may be forgiven for abandoning any 'discussion' that comes down to a 'right-wrong' confrontation

Your post at 13:38 reaches into my overall question(s), ISNT In the shower just now, I was thinking about the favour extended to sexually appealing young women - and how this reflects an abusive relationship. You know, the rapid bonding; the pedestal; the setting of standards; the punishments for non-compliance; the rejections for never being the goddess on the pedestal.

The manipulation is so successful that it permeates the thoughts & values of practically everyone. Women in included.

I want to look at fairy stories, children's books and Disney. But I need to work a lot more through, first ... unless somebody feels like kicking off?

Thought I'd better point out I'm not terribly au fait with kids' media these days! Finding Nemo wins my prize for a gloriously non-sexist children's adventure :)