Patriarchy and the Personal

[IseeGraceAhead]

I rarely use the word "patriarchal" in real life: I say "Male-dominated" or "male-directed" kind of thing.

As a personal project, I'm assessing my own beliefs about what it means To Be A Woman. I'm startled at how much of my self-perception - and perception of women in general - is patriarchal in origin. I don't mind if nobody joins in, but thought it could be interesting if some do :)

Lackinginspiration - We do it for fun though. We sit in here with our face masks on and watch the telly! I liek my husband doing everything he does but it just annoys me mainly with his ironing. He is addicted and it takes so long before you go anywhere to get things the way he wants them. If it has one crease he takes it off and reirons it. It drives me insane and I dont know why he started going out with me as I am the complete opposite when it comes to ironing.

Also doing grooming for longer than me wouldnt take long as I dont really do much cause I dont have to shave, I wear my clothes straight from the washer and make sure they are tight so look ironed etc. They are the bits that take my husband the longest so cutting them out saves me ages on a daily basis!

I also agree with your last post of course the world is ruled by sex! That is what it all comes down to at the end of the day our primary aim is to reproduce and even though we may be more evolved than animals at the end of the day the purpose of us is the same. To quote a song 'You and me baby aint nothing but mammals so lets do it like they do on the discovery channel' Indeed, I mean look at peacocks the male ones are way showier than the women!

IseeGraceAhead- Because the media has no interest in portraying what the city is really like, and that is because it wouldnt make very good viewing or reading and would bore the pants off 99% of the population.

"And tonight, on City Sexup, Joe and Mike discuss school fees and confront Neil about the fact that he is hogging the Bloomberg terminal"

They want to portray a sexed up version where all the men are like Gordon Gekko and come out with lines like "lunch is for wimps" and date models whereas actually most of the senior ones are married and live in the home counties and like golf and hummous.

Therefore the media merges a few city personalities to create a more interesting dynamic, so they morph the social life of a twenty-one year old salesman with the income of a guy twenty years his senior, throw in a love interest (who is also a fictional character morphing Nicola Horlick's asset management acumen with the body of a 19 yr old PA and the wardrobe of Kate Moss)and voila, the viewings figures are up up and away! The women are portrayed inaccurately, but, to be fair, so are the men.

As most of the population also has no interest in whether this portrayal is accurate or not, they get away with it.

Well, I have thick hair on my legs, always have done since puberty. I started shaving at 11 and stopped when I had the dc. I still do shave if I'm wearing skirts because I find tights uncomfortable if I don't, but as I live in trousers most of the time I tend not to bother. I do shave under my arms because my deodorant doesn't work otherwise and I don't see much liberation in smelling.

Bikini line - ohh, well, I read a letter not so long ago to an agony column from a young man who thought his gf was 'abnormal' because she had pubic hair. The agony aunt had to point out that having pubic hair is actally normal and it's up to the gf is she fancies having it ripped out or not. So I definitely view the Brazillian and all its counterparts as a way of defining femininity that comes from men. The idea that I should cover my minge in hot wax and then have my pubes ripped out in order to be more attractive is just , and sadlt young women are getting seriously hurt trying to do just this.

I do love make-up because I like the way I feel when I wear it and frankly I look scarey with out it. But I do love lipgloss and we all know what that looks like...

I think my 'femininity' has shifted since having the dc. For example, I rarely wear heels and if they do they are wedges so I can keep my balance well, whereas before dc I would totter around on 4" stillettoes no probs. My clothes sued to be fitted and body-conscious; after getting pg they had to accomodate my bump, then bf an dmy section, then my mummy tummy, then the next pg, bf and section, and the next, and be practical around sicky babies, sticky fingers and grass stains, and they still have to hide my mummy tummy and not rub my section scar.

So you could argue that in terms of the way I dress I used to dress in a way that enhanced my sexuality as an available woman (even though I wasn't) and that after having dc the way I dress reflects the fact that I am a mother who isn't available?

Sometimes I dress for me, sometimes I dress for Dh. He does the same for me.

Shave your pits, don't shave 'em, who cares?

I don't get the big deal really.

Baggedandtagged - but in RL most young women think old men are ugly and unattractive. Ones that do go out with significantly older men are usually after the money etc. In RL you never see 20somethings talking with friends saying 'oh look at that 50 year old balding, fat bloke he is so much sexier than anyone my age!'

Surely if I was an old rich man I would feel just as insecure as a woman that feels the need to have bum hole bleaching or plastic surgery as because that is all they are valued for. All though I have got preferences in what I like in men attractiveness wise. (I think if most admit it they have to because other wise every man would be as popular as every other man) its not all I want in a man.

There are women out there that only care abot money, power and status in a man they go after that solely and I have heard men on some message boards say that puts pressure on a man. I have been in these types of debates where men say women wont consider men if they dont earn x amount of money a year or arent in a certain job etc which is of course a load of rubbish. Some go after this but by no means all women. Same goes for men with the beauty thing.

"Bagged - do you think it's about how confident we are as women, and that society does it's best to make us feel like we should do all we can to fit in and the people who are confident not to dont' feel so much need to do those things"

I think we need to separate "society"- i.e. what the man/woman on the street thinks and "media/ corporates"- i.e. what corporates selling grooming products/ clothes etc are trying to make you think everyman thinks, because I don't think that they are the same thing at all. If they were, there would be far more single people out there who had been cruelly spurned because their armpits were insufficiently soft (Thanks for that one, Dove)

Most women do not conform to the advertiser's "ideal" on most counts, yet most women have partners who do not appear to care that they don't. Therefore, how can we argue that "men" are imposing these rules on women?

So on that basis, I cant really take credit for being brave to step outside the lines, because I'm not sure that anyone really cares if I do or not. Certainly, my tendency towards frye boots over Jimmy choos has not yet made me a social outcast

'Most women do not conform to the advertiser's "ideal" on most counts, yet most women have partners who do not appear to care that they don't. Therefore, how can we argue that "men" are imposing these rules on women?'

Exactly most people dont conform to what advertisers want. Even with very good looking people in RL how many do you see as made up as David Beckham or Cheryl Cole? Everyone has preferences in what they like with looks to a certain extent but I dont see your average man or woman pushing either sex to be like what the media makes out.

I don't believe the media is as influential as people say - I think most people have the sense to realise what it is up to. Having said that, I am a size 8 with dyed blonde hair and think I'm a massive great big heffer-beast whilst considering extensions. Perhaps I am just wrong and that makes me sad, and fear for my kids when they grow up cause it will probably be worse then.

Happiestblonde, I'm sorry you feel like that about yourself and do, indeed, sympathise. Funny you say you doubt media influence, though - how on earth did you get around to considering extensions, if not with some media-borne nudging? Don't get them, btw, they wreck your hair.

I was thinking about the disparity between what I'm reading here and what I hear on other women's forums - and out & about. I wonder if being a mother excuses you from having to be quite so polished & sexy? That is, from having to appear sexually inviting. Not only would that explain the unusual (imo) insouciance about leg hair, it also shores up my parents' theory rather nicely: that women are only welcome if available for sex, or rearing children. This depresses the hell out of me, not least because I'm menopausal & childfree. By my P&M's logic, I am obliged to try even harder to appear sexually available, or to politely disappear.

The view I'm coming around to is that this is, indeed, the prevalent mindset. I agree with those of you who said it'd be more intelligent - and useful - to forget about all this outside of specifically sexual contexts. It is, though, a phenomenally complicated, multi-layered issue!

Thanks for your nice reply, Gomez. I felt a bit got-at by a post that asked what I'm trying to say: I could have answered, more graciously, I'm not so much making a point as asking a question.

'I was thinking about the disparity between what I'm reading here and what I hear on other women's forums - and out & about. I wonder if being a mother excuses you from having to be quite so polished & sexy? That is, from having to appear sexually inviting. Not only would that explain the unusual (imo) insouciance about leg hair, it also shores up my parents' theory rather nicely: that women are only welcome if available for sex, or rearing children.

I have leg hair but that doesnt mean I am not very sexy. I am a mum but I got out nearly every weekend. Just because your a mum doesnt mean your life stops and just cause you dont shave your legs doesnt mean you arent sexy. Being a mum hasnt changed my social life or how I am percieved in the slightest. I look sexually gorgeous without doing any of that stuff even if I dont shave my legs or I wear trackies and trainers imo.

Grace, have you checked out the work of Christianne Northrupp?

Grace, Here

What would you think of me, with my furry legs and middle-aged lines, Sunny?

Another question: Are women unable to be ruthless enough for success? I know it shouldn't be necessary but, if you want the power to make a difference, there will be others who'll stop at nothing to take that power from you. Is this why there are only four female CEOs in the FTSE 100? Could they not find another 46 tough enough women - or women who are that tough, but still play the requisite 'feminine' game?

Here's a list, if you want to look 'em up:
Cynthia Carroll - Anglo-American
Marjorie Scardino - Pearson
Katherine Garrett-Cox - Alliance Trust
Angela Ahrendts - Burberry

Thanks for the link, spiritmum. I'm not seeing the relevance, did I miss something?

You probably need to dig around in her site or her books but one of her big things is the menopause and in particular the power and wisdom that women gain from it.

'What would you think of me, with my furry legs and middle-aged lines, Sunny?'

Everyone gets lines that isnt a biggy. Its different to hairy legs. Even though I like the things I like in men in the week my husband wears yellow reflective trousers and jacket with his name spray painted one the back and boots with one of those hats the bloke from n dubz wears to keep his ears warm. I still love him, want loads of sex with him etc.

In answer to your next question I dont think that many wmen want to be a ceo so that is often why there is a disparity.

Oh, and she is very, outspokenly feminist.

Heh, if all this introspection gets me as far as it deserves to, I will be very bloody powerful

Sounds good to me. . Seriously, check her out - she's very, very funny. I have her audio programmes to listen to whilst doing non-feminist stuff like laundry.

Grace, I've just read the Edible Woman by Margaret Atwood. She describes it as proto-feminist and it is really light reading. It is a novel and the main character is a woman who goes through similar experiences you have described when looking herself and other women - women who have children, women eating, women who are getting old, women who put makeup on, women who don't put makeup on. Going through that helps her change her life.

I think you would like it as part of your personal project, and I feel the same way as you - thinking about these things is a personal project about our own lives!

D'you know, Milly, that book used to be on my "want to read" list but I'd clean forgotten about it! Thank you :)

Glad you see "the project" the way I do!

Riven, it' sonly been teh last couple of years that the BBc has recognised that two women are capable of commentating on a women's tennis match. Before that they always had a man to help!

Off the top of my head, the only sports where women and men get equal recognition and acclaim are the equestrian ones - show jumping and eventing. Traditionally the upper/middle class ones.