Patriarchy and the Personal

[IseeGraceAhead]

I rarely use the word "patriarchal" in real life: I say "Male-dominated" or "male-directed" kind of thing.

As a personal project, I'm assessing my own beliefs about what it means To Be A Woman. I'm startled at how much of my self-perception - and perception of women in general - is patriarchal in origin. I don't mind if nobody joins in, but thought it could be interesting if some do :)

Interesting about the straighteners for boys! I worked on the launch of the first male 'cosmetic' grooming products - my job was to identify the hooks that would get the lads to buy moisturiser, fake tan, etc. My background probably gives me more of a cynical insight into the whole grooming/toiletries malarkey. Pretty well all of our 'needs' were invented, by marketing men, to create a market for their products. We didn't need deodorant until some genius invented body odour: before that, people just smelled of themselves + scent and never though twice about it! There, too, the need was first created amongst women, then spread to men - it took about 30 years before men used deodorants as regularly as women.

People have always liked to prettify themselves - even chimps like the odd hair ribbon - but not to the extent of radically changing their appearance. The new thought, for me, is just how compelling this process is. I find my own legs disgusting because an ad campaign, 100 years ago, persuaded people - men and women - that hairy armpits & legs were unfeminine. Now it's hard to find an image of a woman with natural body hair. Everyone - men and women - has absorbed the marketing message so thoroughly, we assume a woman with all her hair must be making a statement. Weird. I predict it will take about one more generation, before we also assume men must epilate before showing their body in public. All this rewriting of our own body image is done, quite deliberately, by corporations for profit.

'All this rewriting of our own body image is done, quite deliberately, by corporations for profit.'

Yeah exactly everyone knows that. It has nothing to do with feminism. It isnt just that though once you see men groomed and compared them to none groomed you prefer the groomed. Eg my generation grew up with groomed men and when anyone I knows look at old sex icons that were men we always say they look like tramps. Whereas older women say rugged or something.

I pick and chose things I like and dont expect perfection but there are still some things I wouldnt comprimise in a man. It doesnt mean I only care about beauty as I dont at all but there are things that I see as important and some not. That doesnt mean I know anyone that cares about the extremes such as bum hole bleaching, making women or men always look dressed up, that they have to look a certain way before going outside eg make up but when we are going out I do prefer men to look a certain way.

Who or where are all these people who find hairy legs on woman disgusting? Not in my world.

I shave over the summer when I am wearing skirts; winter time you could perm my leg hair frankly. And I know that many of my friends are the same.

DH has never commented on the fact, I doubt he would notice.

I shave in the summer because I think it looks better please don't tell me this is because I have been 'conditioned' to think this - it does, IMO, look better, nowt to do with what men want or porn or......

Hmm. Thinking aloud:
If I want to be socially acceptable, even to women, I must fit the model of what most men find attractive. Why is that?
If I want my business proposal to be accepted, I must present it in a forceful manner that men would find non-threatening - even if my buyers are women.
If I want to be seen as powerful, I should wear shoes that make me stand provocatively and restrict my movement
If I take big stomping strides when I walk, people may query my gender. (I do this sometimes for fun - people stare!)
If I sit with my legs spread apart, people will think there's something wrong with me. I really don't get this.

Gomez, do you mean you let your legs 'grow' in the winter because they're covered up?

It seems that you, DH and friends are more relaxed about your body in private than I am/was - than my friends and exes, too. I'm not trying to push my views on anyone else; I'm trying to discuss & work stuff through. As you feel hairless legs look "better", though, I'm curious as to whether you've ever wondered why! Better than what? Your real legs?

Is the straighteners for boys thing about the emo look?

That's so interesting about that ad campaign, Grace! Where can I find out more about it?

On my other thread, about the comments made about me by DH's colleagues...well I asked Dh why on earth they would fancy me, when most of the women who come in/work there/are married or having relationships with them are heavily made up, dyed hair etc. He said that he thinks that when a pretty woman comes in who isn't in any way fake, it's very striking and makes a bigger impact.

Grace - did you know that when women wore long skirts (obviously also a 'woman' thing) it was perfectly acceptable to sit with your legs wide apart...in fact very normal!

I feel sexier with shaven legs and, although I don't bother shaving very often in the winter, I shave them if I think I might have sex with DH that night!

Sorry Grace I don't get this either - because what you are describing doesn't ring any accords with me at all.

To be socially acceptable in my world you need to be fun, honest, and kind.

Business proposals suceed on their merit and the ability of the proposer to communicate that merit.

Power has nowt to do with heel size and all to do with ability, confidence and personality.

Big stomping strides and legs apart - I am confused. I have short legs big stomping strides ain't an option. Legs apart eh?

What are you trying to say? That successful woman are all caricatures? Power suits, heels and bigger balls than their co-workers. 'Cause that is not my experience at all. I workign in financial services and that 'model' of successful woman is long gone.

I do think it has something to do with feminism, because it defines what is feminine.

But Grace they are my real legs - just without hair. And imo they do look/feel better. And your question as so to why I think this is beginning down the 'conditioned' route.

Why do you feel it is better to not shave? Why do you think ('casue I am guessing this is how you now feel) that 'real' legs are better? Why can't some prefer shaved and some prefer hairy?

Have to agree with Gomez on the caricature of the power bitch - most professional women in the City are scruffbags in ballet shoes with wet hair( i was one so include myself in that).

I'm finding this thread really interesting- especially Sunny's persepctive. She's only 10 yrs younger than me but I think her perception of what constitutes "normal level of grooming on man" is probably much higher than mine.

There is a lot of discussion on this board about "the grooming burden" for men vs women. Maybe in younger people it's more equal than for older people, but, instead of what odler feminists have been looking for- a reduction in the grooming burden for women- in fact the opposite is occuring- an increase in the burden on men

Wow, no, LackingInspiration, I didn't know that

My OP did say "As a personal project, I'm assessing my own beliefs about what it means To Be A Woman. I'm startled at how much of my self-perception - and perception of women in general - is patriarchal in origin." I thought it'd be a good idea to share it, as I want to reassess some of my thinking/feelings around the whole topic. Other people's views are helpful and, where there's discussion to be had, let's have it!

I'm not interested in being told I'm Wrong though, Gomez. I'm not actually trying to say I'm right!

I don't feel a burden to groom - I do exactly the same as my DH each day!

Shower, wash hair, brush hair, shave (well he shaves every day and I shave when I want to/can be arsed), clean teeth, put deodorant on. That's it. Oh, hang on, I moisturise and DH doesn't, but not to make me look good, just because I can't stand the feel of dry skin! Hair dries itself as I get on with more important things! I don't style my hair, or blow dry it. I don't put make up on. I don't do anything more or less than DH does.

I'd be really put off a man who did more grooming than me (and the sort of man Sunny wants would be one of them) basically because I think that faffing around with all that is such a monumental waste of time! There are far more things I'd rather spend my time (and money) doing over my life than fannying around with make up and facial cleansers etc.

Actually, come to think of it, although the shaving malarky has only come about in the last 100 years, the idea of making yourself look a certain way because you are a woman is ancient. Bum rolls in tudor times to make our bums look big; panniers to make our hips look bigger; corsets to make our breasts look bigger; lead make up to make us look pale and interesting; then different sorts of corsets to squeeze us into whatever was the more fashionable shape; hair up or down according to what is most sexy at the time.

For such a long time, everything we have done as women to fit in socially has been primarily about making us look sexier...primarily about making men want to have sex with us .

But it's also been the same the other way around - codpieces to make willies look bigger; men wore corsets in victorian times to make their manly chests look more manly in comparison to their waists; padding in stockings to make calves look more shapely; shoulder pads and chest padding to make men look more powerful...

The world is ruled by sex! Aaaarrrggghhh!!!

Yes, B&T, I agree the burden is increasing for everybody. Also know what you mean about workplace grooming - I lived through that change myself, from 80's all-get-out to flatties & wet hair.

But ... If powerful women are all like you, movin' an' shakin' with no time for fripperies, then how come media portrayals of powerful women have shiny hair and heels? Since this is particularly true of media aimed at women, we can't assume they're out of touch. What's happening?

Grace I am not saying you are wrong or right I thought I was having the discussion you wanted to have. I wasn't aware that you intended the traffic to be one-way, without challenge or input on others experiences. All posts have been based on my experiences/opinion.

Re: grooming burden - I would guess that there is an association here to increased free time and cash for both genders; coupled with advertising and the media. More connected to capitilisim than any other 'ism' I think.

My spelling is sh*te this morning, my apologies.

Lacking- yeah, I'm pretty much the same as you in terms of daily routine, but the argument is played out again and again on these threads that women are under much more pressure than men to be well groomed and that this is oppressive etc.

eg make-up, removal of body and facial hair, wearing of tight clothes/ high heels.

My personal view is that the pressure is there but i'm not sure how many women (or men) really buy into it as not conforming to this minnie mouse stereotype appears to have no negative consequences (that I've experienced anyway).

I was just wondering if Sunny's views represent a shift to a newer, smoother male physique, or if she just knows a lot of metrosexuals

Oh, god, LackingInspiration, you sound like my mother. If she's right and it really is all about sex, nothing else ... I may have to kill myself now :(

Ahem! Just to add - I don't think she's right, btw! FASHION is all about sex, yeah. Not everything else though, surely ... ??!!

Media portrayal is not a mirror on reality however is it?

Lacking you might be right re: sex as the driver; or at least sexual attractiveness.

Anyway I must get on with what I am supposed to be writing today.

Oh Scottish Christmas Meet-up surely not Butterfly....

[Get bumping]

Bagged - do you think it's about how confident we are as women, and that society does it's best to make us feel like we should do all we can to fit in and the people who are confident not to dont' feel so much need to do those things?

I mean, I do a lot of things differently to other people - I don't send my children to school; we don't have holidays abroad to mention just a couple - and I've always been brought up to do what's right for me and mine, not what other people/society thinks I should do.

I think the only thing I can't bring myself to do is not shave my legs! I would feel so self-conscious with bare hairy legs...I imagine similar to what daily make-up wearers feel with no make up on. I genuinely don't care whether people think I ought to have make up on or not, but I somehow can't break away from the hairy legs thing!

Grace - I reckon feminism should actually be about trying to remove sex as the main focus of our lives. We don't need it to be now that we don't have to produce male heirs to inherit things (titles/property/countries!) and now that we are so far from needing natural selection to work that we must procreate to keep our species going. We ought to be advanced enough to have philosophy and industry to be our main focus. And yet it still isn't - still we spend so much time making us appear sexier to the opposite sex, despite people saying it's not about that...it is undoubtedly based on that.