Patriarchy and the Personal

[IseeGraceAhead]

I rarely use the word "patriarchal" in real life: I say "Male-dominated" or "male-directed" kind of thing.

As a personal project, I'm assessing my own beliefs about what it means To Be A Woman. I'm startled at how much of my self-perception - and perception of women in general - is patriarchal in origin. I don't mind if nobody joins in, but thought it could be interesting if some do :)

TBH I do think that women can do whatever they want in our society, in theory anyway.

Someone with a clear vision and reasonable opportunity and a bit of determination can pull it off.

Which I guess is why a lot of people say feminism is done?

Then when women don't do things in droves (like become CEOs or MPs or race rally cars or work on oil rigs) then everyone says "oh well they obviously don't really want to) which overlooks a lot of the insidious undertones in society, which point girls in certain directions, and shape their aspirations and tell them what their limitations are, without ever saying it out loud. So a lot of people think it's not there, but it is. I do not accept that the majority of people in minimum wage jobs are women, because women don't want anything more. That's just cobblers, sorry.

sunny so when female mountaineers who have died have been reported in the papers saying how terrible it is that a mother would do something so risky, that is my imagination?

I am glad you don't notice any of this stuff, but lots of people do.

'I do not accept that the majority of people in minimum wage jobs are women, because women don't want anything more. '

I am in a minimum wage job but it isnt just a job for me it is a passion, a vocation, it is really important to me. In an ideal world I would of liked some time of at the start when I had kids as I only ended up having 10 days maternity leave (I dont recommend it lol). However apart from that I do feel lucky to work in my job, I have a degree in it and got go a 2:1 and I am about to start my masters. It may just be a crappy minimum wage job to some people but to me it is a love and something that has made me very satisfied.

My best friend works with the learning disabled. She is a very intelligent person but she chose a hands on caring job with the learning disabled. I really admire her for it and she gets so much out of it. When she talks you can hear her passion and her love for it. I find that really nice.

You often find the higher up you go you lose that person to person contact and many women and men really enjoy that. I am academically capable of doing 'more' but I chose to do what I am doing. The same as my husband he was in the military and is currently in a job he hates which is low paid. It isnt the low pay that bothers him its the fact he hates his job so he is currently volunteering to be a youth worker and starting a degree in that. He will only be on a very low wage forever doing that but through volunteering he has found he has got a lot out of it.

I dont think I have any limitations and know I am capable of anything I want to do. I just chose this and I am looked down upon by a lot of people but I couldnt give two hoots.

'sunny,you seem to have a fantastic well balanced life! I am quite envy.
and '

Thank you

Sunny you are not the only person in the world though. I am very glad that your choices have worked out for you, but does that fact that the majority of people in low paid jobs are women mean nothing to you? It doens't make you wonder whether something is wrong? You just assume that all of these women in low paid jobs must be loving every minute and only doing them as they have a passion and if they wanted they could easily go and do something (soulless apparently) instead? Do you honestly believe that?

Is your point in all of this to point out that everything is fine and we should all stop questioning these things?

You have told us that women who are fearful walking alone after dark are stupid
That women who have trepidation about men are foolish as men are all fine
That women aren't represented at a high level in politics or industy as they aren't interested and would rather be at home with their kids
That the fact that women are the majority in low paid roles is because women are driven by caring and vocation and just don't care about money
That women should react in a pleased and complimented manner if one of their DHs workmates says that he wants to fuck her

I mean is all this for real?

I mean I'm not trying to be difficult but every single problem or difficulty anyone has presented on any of the threads I've seen you on has been met with a strong rebuttal of "well that's not true as that's not how I see things/it's not my experience". But you must understand that not everyone has had the same experiences as you? Just because it's not how you see things doens't mean that it isn't true for others.

I am saying that in my experience a lot of women are either in a job such as carer,childcarer,teaching assistant etc because they love it or they are working in tescos, cleaners etc often because they dont want the stress. A lot after their kids are young go on to do great things everyone of my female uni lecturers had kids and trained whilst they were young and did something stressfree and flexible. They all achieved great things and great careers. I know women who after their kids are young have achieved all sorts lawyers, a doctor, social workers, teachers. All of them said that they appreciated the time at home or doing easy jobs such as tescos or dinner lady but are now ready for more.

It isnt because they cant do more or think they cant do anything because they are a woman.

The ones I do know that have careers when the kids are young are still doing what they want to do. I have worked with and for many high ranking officers and NCOS in the military that are women. I was the PA to a very high ranking woman when I was in the Forces. I know woman in war zones, doing all types of jobs and they are mums. They arent looked down on because they are mums at all. They are doing more dangerous things then rock climbing such as saving lives of people who have been shot etc. No one judges them everyone thinks they are fantastic.
People pick different things but they never felt anything was holding them back and they are in a very manly career. They have to make do with being away from their kids for 4, 6 months etc but they do it because they want the career and to be the same as the men. Good on them and they have all achieved a lot.

So all of this means that you have no concerns at all about the gender pay gap or the fact that low paid empoyees are more likely to be women?

Do you think that there is anything left for feminists to do?

Erm no you are twisting my words. I didnt say anyone was stupid for being fearful of walking alone I said the risk of being attacked by a stranger is very low and that moral panics mean people exagerrate potential risks and it causes fear within society. I was also posting this in response to saying when I see a man I get scared and worry he will do something. I think this is irrational and I stand by this. I dont think this is good for gender relations and I dont think it is a good lesson for children to learn.

'That women aren't represented at a high level in politics or industy as they aren't interested and would rather be at home with their kids'

I am saying a lot do want to spend time with their families, down grade their jobs and take time out. This is true isnt it. I am just saying this plays a large part in why there isnt an equal number of CEOs.

'That the fact that women are the majority in low paid roles is because women are driven by caring and vocation and just don't care about money'

No I am saying that a lot of women enjoy caring roles and just because it is a minimum wage job doesnt mean they thought they were limited or didnt have the confidence or ability to do anything else. Also a lot of women do choose jobs such as tesco, dinner lady because it is less stressful and it fits around the kids.

'That women should react in a pleased and complimented manner if one of their DHs workmates says that he wants to fuck her'

I was saying this wouldnt bother me and doesnt bother my social circle. All I was saying is it is something not everyone is bothered by. Same as I dont think all the sex industry is bad and I support women wanting to be strippers etc as long as it is their choice.

'Do you think that there is anything left for feminists to do?'

I personally think a great deal was achieved with original feminism and during the 70s. However in my job I see things going the other way and many young boys are victimised against and thinks are going the other way in some areas. I think that there needs to be a more humanist approach rather than continually perpetating a culture of men vs women which I dont think has been good for gender relations or families.

I also think my focus is on women in developing countries. I personally think it is more pressing to think about women working in sweat shops for 20p an hour rather than worry about middle class families who have choices and chose not to carry on in certain careers then being upset because they cant get straight back on where they left off or worrying that some man whistled at me. I also think that many men in the developing world are also oppressed. My concerns lie with them.

See that's where we're at cross purposes and I don't think we're ever going to agree TBH.

You think that women aren't in power generally because they don't want to be. I think that they are held back.

You think that a low level barrage of sexual harrassment against women is acceptable and to be shrugged off, I don't.

You think that teh gender pay gap is neither here nor there, I think it is very important.

It's a different starting point.

BTW I think that you have twisted your own words slightly when "re-explaining" the points that I said you have made on this and other threads.

Put basically you think that women in the UK have everything they could possibly want and now men are starting to be oppressed. Things like the gender pay gap and rape stats and so on are neither here nor there. I look around and see a different picture, where women are still under-represented and undervalued.

To say look what is happening abroad that is worse what are you worrying about? How can we change things here or anywhere else if we have no power? The best way of effecting change is to be part of the decision making process - where is aid money spent, how is it spent, shall we go to war over this, what about all this oil, shall we deal with the saudis. I think that until women have decent political representation that things will not change. I think we will have to agree to disagree TBH.

Sorry sunny I feel like I'm being horrible. I just don't think that there is a way to talk about women's issues when we have such different starting points.

I am really glad though that you have such a balanced and fulfilling life and are surrounded by people who feel the same way .

'Do you think feminism is men vs women?
That's not my experience.'

Well the fact on here people say dont worry about the men they can sort out their own issues etc. Womens and mens issues are intertwined when it comes to thinks like gender relations and family life.

'Put basically you think that women in the UK have everything they could possibly want and now men are starting to be oppressed. Things like the gender pay gap and rape stats and so on are neither here nor there. I look around and see a different picture, where women are still under-represented and undervalued.'

I see boys who are thought to have ADHD when they are just displaying normal behabiour. (I do believe ADHD is real but I think it is overdiagnosed which is detrimental to the ones that do have it and the ones that have been misdiagnosed). It is tossed around really flippantly with young boys ime.

I think fatherless homes and some mothers not letting fathers have access to their children is having a detrimental to childrens self esteem much more detrimental than the media. I know men can walk out and dont care but there are many that want access but if the relationship is fraught then it can become a problem. I support Fathers for Justice groups etc. I think womens and mens problems are interconnected and it isnt just about men or women we should look at injustices as a whole. Apparently according to some on here men have all the financial power, a licence to rape and know the world is in their favour. This isnt true for a lot of men and if you think these things are just 'mens issues' then you arent thinking of the next generation and the fallout that has come from fatherless homes/divorce. I think in a lot of spheres there is a mistrust between the sexes and that is why I lean towards Humanism.

I think mens issues are different but the average man has them. It is a small amount of the top men that oppress us and they also oppress men. Yes there are rapists and abusers that are men but it is no means a large proportion of them. Rape is a world away from a man whistling at you.

I am not saying rape is irrelevant but I hate the way that it seems like because a small amount of men rape that men are to be feared of when we walk down the street. I dont like the assertion that men who work with children or the vulnerable are paedophiles. It is a big problem in this country and I think it is detrimental to men, women and the next generations. This is what I mean by moral panic every man is seen as a threat and if you see this as a 'mans issue' then you are not seeing how this kind of attitude impacts on the lives and culture of everyone.

In regards to the gender pay gap I am not saying it is completely irrelevant I am saying that the reason why women dont become CEOS is because they often take time out or go to lesser positions which is why you are never going to get a 50/50 split etc.

'To say look what is happening abroad that is worse what are you worrying about? How can we change things here or anywhere else if we have no power? The best way of effecting change is to be part of the decision making process - where is aid money spent, how is it spent, shall we go to war over this, what about all this oil, shall we deal with the saudis. I think that until women have decent political representation that things will not change. I think we will have to agree to disagree TBH.'

This is all perpetrated by the financial elite who have the power behind the government. It isnt something the average man or the average woman can infiltrate. The last war was just for profit from oil and was dressed up as something other. Its too complicated for me to go in to here

'sunny, I also care about the issues you have listed.
I care about them and those discussed in the feminism section.'

You might butterfly but a lot in here dont see it that way they do see it as men v women. I have only been in this bit of the forum a week or so and I have already seen many posts that see mens issues as irrelevant or that men are allso priviledged that they couldnt understand oppression like women can. Its this I object to personally.

I dunno, Sunny. I used to feel similarly to you - in general, not the specifics - and I agree that men are subject to weird, genderised pressures (some of which have been touched on in this thread.) When I started looking at the influences that have shaped my view of myself as a woman, and of women in general, I expected to find maybe two or three areas stamped by 'the patriarchy'. What I found, instead, was near-total pervasiveness. Shocked by this, I'm interested in comparing my thoughts with those of other women. Yours are as valid as anyone else's but you seem to argue a little too narrowly; to me this sounds like those people who say "The education system's perfect as it is, my Sophie got five As."

I'm looking at the influences that have defined me (as a woman, which is everything since I am one.) I'm leaving my parents out of it. I started with women's magazines, since I've been a magazine fan since childhood. They have educated, informed, entertained & guided me - and introduced me to feminism as a teenager. What messages, overall, have I received from my glossy mentors, I asked myself?

This month's Marie Claire is in front of me. Marie Claire pioneered a new style of investigative think-pieces (this month, about Brazilian carnival queens) and assumes intelligent readers. Alongside a feature on young, self-made, women millionaires ("Ask yourself what you would do if you knew you couldn't fail"), there's the usual banal sex-n-health advice, style, celebs and a good handful of interesting topics, albeit lightly covered. There is acres and acres of female flesh, all of it young & blemish-free. Hundreds of ads promising to make me youthful-looking, radiant, shiny, glossy.

Now I'm not saying the editor's part of a male conspiracy. I respect this magazine - and I know everything about a consumer magazine business model. The money for the editorial content comes from advertisements. Advertisers want to sell product to women, therefore the title must support the 'needs' those products fill. If they started running massive features on the joy of cellulite, wrinkles and scratty hair, they'd lose their revenue stream and there would be no Marie Claire. The content must support the advertisers. Therefore it must imply the reader's 'needs' are genuine. The 'need' to have a youthful, blemish-free, toned & slender, glossy body isn't real. A quick rub-down with olive oil will keep your skin healthy enough, and nobody needs to be toned & skinny. The rest is all made up ... and reflects what a man finds desirable in a woman.

The fact that women (in general) have taken this directive to heart, such that most of us believe we need to be glossy, toned, etc, is testament to the overarching success of a multi-layered campaign to make us 'need' to appear sexually desirable. So as to make money for the corporations with male CEOs.

I've been writing this piecemeal, sorry if it's gone out of date.

I am loving your posts on this thread, Grace, and thank you for sharing your thoughts so eloquently and openly. I have been a lurker on this board since I was sent a link by a friend when it first started. I am not a mother and was not sure whether I could or should do any more than lurk and learn. However, I am a woman and 90% of the issues written of on here are pertinent to me too, so I hope I am not treading on any toes by posting.

Over the past 5 years or so, I have been going through a similar process to yours in that I have been taking a long hard look at who I am and where I fit into the world and what messages I have picked up along the way. It hasn't been structured in anyway (I wish it had been!) and some days I feel a dull despair when I wish that I could unring that bell and go back to being unchallenging and unthreatening to myself and others. But I can't. This is too important.

I used to be a big MC reader in my late teens (an 37 now). It seemed so grown up to me and so different from other offerings. It frustrates me now that editorial and ads (including thinly disguised ads - as - content)are in such juxtaposition to each other. Someone bought me a subscription to Psychologies magazine a few years ago. I didn't continue it for many reasons, the main one being that I could not get over the paradox of the "empowerment" (bleugh) pieces alongside the ads.

I am fascinated by women who do not feel that they are touched by the patriarchy. WTF is wrong with me that I do feel that I have been?

"WTF is wrong with me?"
You committed the crime of thinking for yourself? Most unfeminine, tsk

Well, yes. It seems not to be the done thing. I seem to be upsetting the apple cart left, right and centre at the moment. I'm not even confronting anyone, I'm just not playing along anymore. "Hmmm" seems enraging for some folks.

I am 37, single, no children, working to make ends meet until I go away to sail the Atlantic in December. For some reason, my situation perplexes many people around me. I don't fit into the box they have for me, you see. If I am not married and have kids then I should have a career. And why aren't I married anyway? What's wrong with me? - the subtext to so many conversations. But I have male friends in very similar situations who get kudos for eschewing the traditional set-up and following their dream. Fuxache.

Patriarchy and the personal? Yes, it does feel like that sometimes. Heck, it IS like that every day. Thankfully I have somewhere like this board to see that I am not alone in thinking that it is all messed up.

And to think that marketing was my favourite module at university......