Patriarchy and the Personal

[IseeGraceAhead]

I rarely use the word "patriarchal" in real life: I say "Male-dominated" or "male-directed" kind of thing.

As a personal project, I'm assessing my own beliefs about what it means To Be A Woman. I'm startled at how much of my self-perception - and perception of women in general - is patriarchal in origin. I don't mind if nobody joins in, but thought it could be interesting if some do :)

Sorry I am confused so that women now has your old job?

Huh? No. It's all there. Bit long, I know, but I summarise at the end.

I didnt come across it in the military but have worked in all womens teams since and yeah I have as I think a lot of women change their mind like the wind. Everyone hates one person one week wont speak to them, blanks them, turns away when they come in, wont make them tea, wont let things go until someone ends up crying and quitting etc then a few weeks later its someone else etc. Once someone gets a bee in their bonnet about something everyone gets involved and leaves them out and brings up some stupid thing that happened about a year ago sets everyone of again etc. I do feel for your experiences but I think it is sometimes the job and team as opposed to just one gender.

Do you like women, Sunny?

Lol yes! I do think womens teams are more bitchy though. I have been caught up in loads of bitchy stuff in the past so I know I am just as bad. I think sometimes when women can work together we can be best friends (like my job now) however I havent always got on with people and things have got out of hand in the past between us when we have all been together. I am not saying it cant happen in mixed sexes things as well but I find I get emotionally involved with things and then things and other females do sometimes so things get really emotionally charged.

I think it happens a lot between groups of young women as now I am getting older and work with older people it doesnt happen as much. I know younger girls doing the same job now in similar teams and when I hear the same stories I think oh god I remember those days. In groups of young girls all in one team though it sometimes does get ridiculous.

"it is sometimes the job and team as opposed to just one gender." Well, yes, in the story I told it was entire company. It was nothing to do with gender. Unless you count the Lads going to a strip club every day, using hookers non-stop on sales conferences and being in men-only clubs where business deals were done. And yelling "you thick cunt" across the office. And groping female colleagues in the pub.

The sexual harassment I mentioned, which Mad Boss locked me in the car to tell me about, included making female juniors sit with their legs apart (no knickers) over the pockets on the billiard table. All harmless fun. And locking me up to tell me about it, jokingly, was just slightly misguided camaraderie, no?

Thanks for your other post: I'm relieved! I have worked for mad narcissistic females as well, but all of my happiest jobs were in predominantly female outfits with a woman boss. I agree that we improve with age

Oh my goodness, Grace! (just read your link)

Anything I can do?

Aw, thanks, spiritmum :) It's ages ago now - I am still recovering from the combined effects of Arses Inc & Arse XH - but coming along well, I think! All the management "Lads" were made redundant about a year after me. In its new incarnation the company isn't bully-free but is more normal - and more legal! And the CEO is a woman

Looking at this story, which was linked from another thread here, reminded me of a woman banker I met who told me the men in her office ripped her knickers off at work, in full view of her boss. "What did you do?" I asked. "Carried on working" she replied. Think about what that sort of behaviour would do to your self-respect. And what it conveys to the rest of the team about acceptable attitudes to women.

Hi Grace - and everyone - I am over here on Feminism,lurking mostly,these days.I have followed this thread - love it -
and have LOADS I want to say,but am up to my neck in dc and term starting tomorrow.Not enough time to think/type...without interruptions and then discussion moves fwd iyswim
Plus have jelly for brains at moment.

But I am marking my place.

Fairytales - done loads of reading last w/e when dc away....aaargh,so want to launch off on stuff but dc everywhere!!!!!!

I have to face my employment tribunal in next few months....many parallels with your experience...really want to get other perspectives before I engage with it...

Got to go...so much pressure!!!!

Sorry everyone if this is a hijack,not meant to be..

I will return,hopefully soon!

Well, Grace, give me a shout if I can do anything, even if it was a long time ago.

It's about power, isn't it? I remember reading about a young man starting work who was debagged by the women at his factory. In this case it was a very female-dominated environment and they were making sure he knew his place. But removing the clothes of a man is no different from removing the clothes of a woman if done without consent; the difference is only that there are more male-dominated workplaces, and most men should be able to fight back. (This was a shy boy of 18 or so who couldn't)

This is going to sound a bit arsey but as a society we've lost any concept that sex (and so our bodies) are in any way sacred and holy (not in any religious sense you understand, this has nothing to do with religion or doctrines or marriage or whatever). I've been reading on here this morning about the underage boy who has a picture of his equally underage gf with no clothes on. That's fine if he understands that what she has done is share with him something precious and sacred, but not if he's taken this as an opportunity to let his mates ogle her or share her image around the internet. Many adults don't get this concept, let alone teenagers. It's why I really don't like pornography; it cheapens down to the lowest level something that works best when held as unique and sanctified.

I agree, personal boundaries seem to be all over the place. It is about power (isn't it always?) and I sometimes think I can understand women breaching men's boundaries - by sexual & verbal assault, etc, as you described and in hen parties - as a kind of warped bid for equality. Very sad if we can only attain equality at base, abusive levels: I'm sure equality is supposed to mean equal respect!

This has reminded me about an ongoing argument I had with XH about strippers. I sometimes hired male strippers for girls' nights. He was addicted to lap dances. The difference (which he did get, really, but chose not to admit) is that the male strip act for women is jokey; parodic. It's taken that way, too - the female audience giggles a lot, plays the part, and leaves joking about who made the biggest fool of themselves. At no point does any woman feel like really having sex with the stripper. The strippers know this; their job is to entertain, not seduce. With the man and his dancer, it's a different story altogether.

I haven't read any theory on this (can't be bothered either) but I suspect part of the male stripper's function is to temporarily rob "Men" of their power. For half an hour we have a fit, young, naked man performing jokey acts for our amusement. He wants nothing from us but a round of applause and his fee. Unlike the lap dancer, he's not selling sex and the women aren't looking to buy any.

If I go any further into this, I'll lose today's work ... must concentrate!!

Thank you for your lovely messages :)