Overheard ds's inappropriate conversation with friend

[blubberball]

DS is 14 and neuro divergent. He's quite immature for his age, and is like a younger child in his manner. I usually hear him talk to his friend about games, but last night I overheard him say to his friend on the phone "How many times did your dick go hard whilst you were talking to her?" I was a bit shocked to hear him talking to his friend like that, so I told him to say bye to his friend. It was time for his screens to go off any way, and I take his technology every night and lock it away. He seemed a bit mortified that I'd heard him say that, and cleaned his teeth and went straight to bed. He usually faffs around for an hour after screens off. I told him not to ask his friend that. A little while later, I went into his room to talk about misogyny. He didn't know what it was. I told him it's treating women and girls badly, and I said that girls aren't objects. He was embarrassed and just wanted to go to sleep. He was turned away and didn't want to talk. I thought it was important to say something.

Is this just a normal thing for teenage boys to say to their mates? I don't want him to feel shame about normal feelings of being attracted to the opposite sex, and erections. But I also want to protect girls from this attitude from boys. How do I manage this going forward? I'm planning on having more little conversations about misogyny now and then. Does anyone please have any experience with this?

It is not misogynistic to have sexual desire.
I think you had good intentions but I think some repair now needs to be done, as you risk him not wanting to talk to you about stuff anymore. He needs to not feel ashamed of his body and his sexuality.

I would revisit topic to say it’s normal to like girls, and it’s important to know how bodies work. He can always ask you and his dad questions and better than asking friends. Talk about consent for partners AND for him. Explain about healthy relationships for him as a partner and personally. I would also talk about feelings and how intense they can be but sometimes the other person likes you back, sometimes they don’t and that’s sad - that’s when important to talk to you for support. Also relationships don’t always last and that’s normal too. Drip drip relationship education.

I think it's quite normal to ask if a new date gave you the crotch leaps or something like that. Maybe not at 14, because we wouldn't have come up with such witty terminology. Or you know what, we probably didnt understand female arousal because it isn't as easy to observe in both oneself and others.

Agree, it wouldn't be misandry. I think the misogyny link isn't there, but I do still think it's inappropriate. I accept I'm in the minority there though.

I didn’t read it that way. I read it as they were talking about a different girl, who OP’s DS isn’t interested in because he has a girlfriend. But he thinks his friend likes her.

Absolutely, I don't want him to be ashamed about feelings or his body. But also don't want him talking about girls in those terms when girls are obviously complex human beings and not playthings

Yes this is correct

This 🔺️ Absutely

I'm really sorry @blubberball but I think you have gone about this in very much the wrong way. You have caught you DS off-guard, embarrased him, and accused him of misogyny, when he wasn't being misogyginistic in any way!

Has your DS got any other brothers, and if so, are any of them older than him? Has he got a father on the scene, and if so is he intelligent, sensible, and gets on very well with his son? If no father around, are there any good men in his life that he likes and respects, eg. Uncle, Grandfather, etc?

First of all, I think that you as his Mum, need to have an indepth conversation with - probably - a trusted male friend or relative, so that you can get a good idea about what is, and what isn't, appropriate conversations between teenage males.

Then, when you hopefully understand a lot better, please apologise to your son, and ask him if he is willing to have a chat with the a male that he trusts, and who is one that you obviously trust as well. Of course, the gentleman in question, will have had to agree before hand to have a ersonal chat with your DS.

There are probably articles on the Internet, or even books available, about how to bring up teenage boys. I'm sorry that I can't give you any recommendations, or links, maybe other Mumsnetters can do that for you. Good luck with the very tricky business of bringing up teenagers OP, whether they are ND or NT! 💐

I totally understand, but someone being a complex human being can also turn you on. If he gets an erection talking to a girl, it's not just about the way she looks. He fancies her, he desires her.

Gosh ....I mean as a teenager I spoke a lot ot nonsense with friends and would nave been mortified for my mum to hear

I think it was brave of you to tackle it but I think boys chat a lot of nonsense?

It makes me think of the show the inbetweeners...

Obviously we have to protect boys from porn addled culture but I also wouldnt want to shame them for a.bit of lad chat

I think many teenage girl/boys would have similar conversations with their friends. I think it’s wise to be respectful about women. But he was not disrespectful but curious? I would be wary that he may struggle to discuss normal teenage conversations if you keep shutting him down.

Also, it's great that he has a close enough friend to talk to each other about stuff like this, instead of combing the internet and looking at porn! It's great that they have phone calls and not just texting ...

It’s difficult. Because you can obviously talk about finding someone attractive and being turned on by them without that being your only view of them. Just because you talk about someone in that way doesn’t mean you don’t also think they’re funny, or clever, or enjoyable to talk to.

When I was his age I 100 per cent had very sexuallt graphic chats with friends almost constantly

We used to share every detail of what we did with boys...you dont develop a bit of privacy until you are older and have more serious relationships ...

And..re seeing girls as complex beings.

That very reductionist to assume he cant see them as complex beings just because he is basically teasing a mate about being sexually attracted to a girl

This is a good book about respect with regard to girls/women. It’s very balanced.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lads-Respect-Consent-Create-Positive-ebook/dp/B0B937QZ8K/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2VTZMYKH4VQDX&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.9pLy4dOMdKMN3F8FxczTr5M1scUX9N6e-CkYO8P1c3gUJLXM112IOa2jhgawEfQZqlwhHbmiFBRHMhwA9w6WLQw-M2R27otCIH3r45VWl8Wx_JOBwUk01L0S0cqQcu3gfSpTrkixmyptmv5w4qFFqei7ZZlS1U3z4kcGMmuZe21et4RsszdUW6m6vNjcfgYQXa01G8EuuyyaDAU7kAzM6e0MvIra6TvOwBZaMAK6O8w.0-V6DL_jYZa_wySw7npr5-e04Pi6prSoZ16wj_2QjDk&dib_tag=se&keywords=Lads+book&qid=1759389828&sprefix=lads+book%2Caps%2C165&sr=8-1

I don't think talking about being turned on by someone is the same as talking about them as if they're a plaything. I talked about boys with my friends when I was a teenager in equivalent terms. It's part and parcel of discovering your sexuality.

The key thing you should be talking about is how to separate how someone makes you feel and how you treat that person. Getting hard because of a girl is fine. Talking with your friends about who you're attracted to is fine. But those things shouldn't be allowed to affect how you treat them.

Feelings that can't be helped vs actions that can be controlled.

What misogyny?! Gosh your poor son. His own mum shamed him. Probably never come to you about anything ever again - I certainly wouldn’t. It wasn’t a sexual conversation - it was a fairly normal teenage conversation you caught a bit of, then shamed him for it. His body is changing - he’s curious.

I grew up with brothers, and I do have another older ds. My brothers are good men, and respectful of women. I think that I worry so much about my ds's being respectful of women. Obviously I don't want them to get into any trouble, but also I never want any harm to come to a girl or woman because of their behaviour.

I've grown up and lived in a world of male entitlement and abuse. I worked in a male environment. I was sexually assaulted at work. I was raped. I know how it feels to be used. Most women do. I thought that times should be changing.

Unfortunately I can't talk to their dad about this as he was my abuser. I want to ask my ds later if he has any male role models he looks up to. I would love for a trusted male role model to chat to my ds about being respectful to women and girls

Absolutely not. Thank you for pointing out to your son that is not an acceptable way to talk about or treat young girls.

He’s possibly learned that language from online or even porn but the mothers of young girls ought to be thankful there are mothers of son’s correcting the dehumanising and damaging attitudes. Doesn’t help either sex.

And going by these boys will be boys comments, presumably made by mothers of sons, I now know why there are so many misogynistic young men still out there. This is quite depressing.

I’m so sorry that you’ve had personal experience of misogyny and assault.

It doesn't help that in the UK people can't seem to say 'penis' and can only say 'willy' apparently, and then by the time they get to teenage years they obviously need to replace it with something and it ends up being dick or cock which sound much more porn-like

But she would be, because thats how sex and relationships work. Your son will be referenced in that way by the girls who fancy him. We are attracted to someone and we talk to our close friends about that.

Its almost like people think we come out of being born in a flower bed or something. Humans are sexually attracted to other humans and its a topic of conversation. Music, theatre, film, art, adverts are nearly always based on this!

It shouldnt be a surprise.

Music, theatre, film, art and adverts are predominantly aimed at the male gaze

OP, given your personal experience I suspect that you're picking up on something you can hear in your son that perhaps is changing as he's getting older.
I don't think you were wrong to challenge it, although I seem to be in the minority on this thread.
You can't tackle misogyny and disrespect in adult men - especially as a woman. But maybe pushing back to casual 'bantz' in teenage boys might make them think just a little bit about how acceptable it is to talk about girls/women in a crude way.

I do think there are a few on this thread that don't know what misogyny is. Fancying women as a male and discussing how they make you feel sexually is not misogyny. If this conversation was happening at school out loud in front of the girl it would be inappropriate but a private chat between 2 boys is very healthy I would say. We needed to remember we are all older and different to teenagers. Just because we wouldn't discuss something like that it doesn't make it wrong. Teenagers especially boys need to be able to discuss these things with their mates, he's probably trying to gauge if the reaction of getting a hard on whilst talking to a girl is normal and yes it is. I remember watching a clip of love island a few years ago and one of the women was talking about a man on there giving him "fanny flutters" it's not something I would say but totally normal and no one saw anything wrong in that