🐌 Fantastic Skincare: Is Everyone Having Botox Without Me? 💉

[botemp]

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For those who are taking a peek and wondering what this all about, we mostly discuss a bit of advanced skincare here with a perspective of seeking out the right ingredients (rather than the latest new shiny product and all its empty promises) for our particular skin needs. Distinguishing the acid toners from the actives whilst avoiding the truly unimpressive and harmful ingredients with a hope to achieve a bit of anti-ageing, alleviate irritation and sensitivities with some idle chat in between. Newcomers are always welcome but please note the following:

Questions and asking for help on this thread is encouraged, however, we can’t give you a specific routine to follow and hope it works out for the best. There are no overnight miracles in skincare whether it be in the form of products or techniques. It’s about perseverance, understanding your skin, assessing its needs and responding to that in a diligent manner.

These threads were created to help those who want to learn for themselves. We’re a group of interested and invested skincare nuts happy to offer tea and sympathy and dole out advice. Everyone’s journey with skincare is different, what is universal and binds us is that through actually learning about the different active ingredients it helps us get to know our skin and help us adapt as it will change many times throughout our lives - with seasons, hormonal changes, ageing, genetics etc. It's in everyone's best interests to get to know their skin and to keep reviewing those changes with the confidence that comes from the gathered knowledge here. We really encourage you to spend the time reading through previous threads and linked info sheets that the many contributors have taken the trouble to share.

By no means are we experts, we're only a bunch of amateurs that can only respond by suggesting what we would do in your place, for any severe conditions please seek out professional help.

Ahem, and finally a little note on spending. I'm well aware these threads cause many to reach for their wallets and spend with wild abandon. There can sometimes be a bit of a frenzy surrounding the excitement around a newly discovered product or on the back of great improvements when someone reports back. This is all great, it doesn't however, mean everything that's a sudden miracle for one will be it for you. Usually, it's a light bulb moment for connecting the right skincare ingredient with an individual experiencing a specific problem. Take your time to mull over decisions and question whether it's right for you too. Skincare is highly individual, it's a slow game that should cost mostly in patience, input, education, and perseverance. Please don't make it cost you financially needlessly.

I am very slowly working on consolidating the gathered information from previous threads into easier to read formats but it’s slow going. I would suggest reading thread 1 and at the very least the following info sheets (provided they apply to you):

Where to Start

Basics of an Actives Routine

Skin Types vs. Skin Conditions Info Sheet

Anti-Ageing Info sheet

Adult Acne Info Sheet

Understanding Which Sunscreen(s) to Buy

Do I Really Need to Wear Sunscreen Every Single Day of the Year?

A Damaged Skin Barrier - Now What?

NEW SERIES:

So You Want To Buy A Retinoid - A Guide

December 2019: Time for The Snailies way more reliable and better than the MN recommends annual roundup (yes I'm still bitter about them quoting me in isolation and making me sound like a wanker please don't revoke my special image allowance privileges, MNHQ )

Also: Thread 20 in time for 2020!!! Ahem, where are my presents?

I have the hat in navy blue. Navy or dark grey is my black. I was tempted by red but I wear orange and navy is just easy/goes with everything.

I never got on with the Vichy Mineral 89.

I'm using the tret from Dermatica every other night. A bit of flaking the next morning but nothing major.

I bought an Aveda 'Hand Relief' hand cream last month. I like it a lot. Very moisturising.

@botemp Since ditching the micellar water and cleansing both AM and PM (Double cleansing in PM if necessary) I’ve noticed it’s improved the dull, slightly dry look and feel of my skin. Since introducing Hyaluronic acid, i’ve just found it seems to give me a nice boost. It gives me a nice glow/shine to the skin almost, but if it doesn’t offer long term benefits than I can’t say I think it’s particularly worth it. I’m looking to make a long term investment when it comes to buying products. Not really looking for a quick fix, and if the HA is only a quick fix, it’s rather futile. I’ll keep a bottle handy for now and again, as I do enjoy it, but I guess it’s not the holy grail I was hoping it would be.

I can’t understand why almost every skincare website i’ve browsed makes such a big deal of it. Paula’s choice, Zelens, NIOD... they all seem to offer HA serums and promise the world... “Improves skin elasticity, helps reduce fine lines and wrinkles, leaves skin softer, smoother, younger looking”
I took that to mean that if you invest in a decent HA, it’s active enough to deliver the above long term, not temporarily!

That's what HA does, it plumps and it makes your skin look better (than it is), fine lines fade from the plumping, the higher planes of your facial structure lift and catch the light so you look healthier. Technically the marketing isn't wrong they just omitted 'temporarily'. Beauty marketing is especially crafty and it goes though a lot of legal checks just so they can push it to suggesting things in such a way without overpromising. 'Leaves' is operative in that blurb, to a hopeful 'I want this to work for me' consumer it suggests a permanence of results but it literally is just saying, leaves skin X,Y,Z after each use.

I think I've mentioned it before, even though it's not especially well researched it is worth looking into Bakuchiol as it has a lot of promise as a retinol replacement when you can't use one.

@botemp As always, your reply is appreciated. I will take a look at Bakuchiol.
I have a fair bit of HA to get through, so will keep it up for now, but it’s good to know my money will be better spent elsewhere.
I don’t want to go OTT, I know (predominantly from this thread) That less is more, and that consistency is key, but I do want to introduce Niacinamide and some kind of decent, hydrating serum. At least until I can go down the tret route.
Any thoughts on squalane based serum? Also looking at the Timeless COQ10 serum as it comes in a package deal with their Vit C. Might be worth purchasing the package when i’m due to run out to give it a go.

I have the Coq10 currently, I'm not convinced it's doing anything 🤷

Squalane is just very occlusive. It depends on skin type, I tend to find it 'suffocating'.

CGM CHAT, Sophie, did you do the whole fermenting thing? I'd like a little protein too, I'm still eyeing up the Innersense stuff. Curly Cailín did a whole write up of the brand recently and loved all the products I was eyeing. Definitely want the foam and volume lotion. I did notice she's very anti bowl method but not sure why.

I used the bonnet last night after a clarifying and chelating shampoo followed by deep conditioning mask. Usually I'm a little more frizzy than normal from the clarifying wash but not at all this time (as in normal amount of frizz, I'll never be completely free of it) and my hair is very bouncy and shiny. Very pleased, and the price is definitely reasonable for it considering time spent and outlay of materials, she really isn't turning a massive profit. It's also kind of heavy so spendy shipping costs suddenly make sense

HI Pupsie, I remember you well from when I used to post here. Aren't you the one who started this thread many moons ago?

I also didn't get on well with squalane the one time I tried it. It blocked my pores and gave me spots (but then a lot of things do with me...)

Has anyone done micro-blading eyebrows? It's not normally the sort of thing that would tempt me but seen a few people/friends here with amazing brows and they've all had them done at the same place and it's very close to me. Wondering if I've just got too much time in quarantine to thing about things though!!

CGM CHAT Hi Bo. I didn't ferment the rice. I boiled it and used the sludgy water to rinse over and squish in my hair. I would have preferred to do a modified rice water-protein mask treatment but my protein mask hasn't arrived and neither has my thermal cap. I clarified before all that with an Apivita shampoo we had here which didn't contain sulphates etc but which had the ingredient needed for clarifying.

I think Cailin is very big on getting the right moisture-protein balance for the hair and says that once someone has been co-washing for a while and using right conditioners etc etc then it's very easy for hair to become over-moisturised. What I gather from reading her is that the bowl method is just giving too much moisture to hair which already has enough moisture (which is why she also says once hair has its moisture then you should squeeze out excess water before applying products). It appears products in a routine need to balance between moisturising and protein ones.

I was looking at Innersense. They are pretty pricey products but there as a conditioner I liked the look of.

I watched Curly Cailin's live curl clinic the other evening (it went on foe ages....) and she did say that her delivery price for caps has gone up due to the current situation and that she needs to send everything by registered post.

CGM chat: Sorry was writing in a rush and so many typos. Ts part in particular should make more sense now:

"What I gather from reading Cailin's website is that the bowl method is just giving too much moisture to hair which probably already has enough moisture in it (which is why she also says once hair is well moisturised, then best to squeeze out excess water before applying products)."

She does give examples of what hair is like when over moisturised and what it is like if too much protein. I'm probably on the too much moisture side - hence looking forward to my protein mask and cap arriving. Once I've tried all these new products then need to buy a normal protein conditioner and a new low-poo shampoo. And possibly a styling product and some Gel (still got a whole bottle of DC which is working for me).

Hey Sophie. Yes I am the OP. We must have been going for about 4 years now!

Good evening,
I was hoping if I could have some help with my routine? I’m new to this a but have been reading caroline hirons blog, and added some new products. I’m on a very limited budget so can’t really add more but want to make sure i’m putting everything on in the right order.

AM:
Cleanse - the ordinary
Mist - sukin
Niacinamide 10% + zinc 1% - the ordinary on any spots/big pores/blackhead
Hyaluronic acid 2% + b5 -the ordinary
Mist - sukin
Caffeine eye cream - Iinkey list
Collagen booster - Iinkey list
AVST Moisturiser- Eviron Vit A & C
SPF

PM
Cleanse - oil & water double cleanse - inkey list
Cleanse - ordinary
Mist -sukin
Hyaluronic acid 2% + b5 -the ordinary
Mist -sukin
Q10 serum - Inkey List
Mist - sukin
Squalane - inkey list
Mist - sukin
Collagen booster - inkey list
Bakuchiol moisture - inkey list
Rosehip oil

Use verso retinol night cream & eye cream Instead of Bakchiol (inkey list) 3 X nights a week?

Niacinamide 10% + zinc 1% & Hyaluronic acid 2% + b5 make my skin sting like nettles have been on it - is that okay?

Is there anything I should change? Or spread it across a few days? Please spell it out for me, i’m so confused!

Thanks

Cake&CoffeeQueen

Welcome Cake, my first impression (assuming this is all new to you and this a brand new routine), sorry, it's far too much far too soon.

Start basic and work your way up, focus on cleanser, moisturiser, SPF, for a good few weeks/months then gradually introduce something else. If you're on a limited budget and haven't used everything yet I'd be returning a lot of it as you don't need this many products within a single routine, ever. I'd also suggest only using the Caroline Hirons blog as a reference (the cheat sheets) and not to actually follow it, it is a sales channel and normalises excessive routines (both in terms of amount of products and what is spent on it).

Couple of things, the Inkey List double cleanse is misleadingly named, it's a biphase cleanser, which is fine to get rid of eye makeup but it's not a first cleanser. The ordinary squalene cleanser is a first cleanse but be aware it's rather poor value for money and probably too much for the morning.

If niacinamide is stinging you, it'll be the concentration or the ingredient entirely. It's not okay, stop using it, your skin won't get used to it, pass on to a spotty teen with resilient skin if you can. The ordinary HA 2% is a known wild card and one to avoid generally, I'd stop using that entirely too if it's stinging. HA may be the common denominator, in that your skin does not tolerate it well, but the Ordinary formulations are very crude so it's very difficult to say whether it is ingredient, formulation, or both that are causing the issue. The ordinary does offer refunds to anyone not getting on with their products.

From your routine I can't tell what your skin type is, your AM suggests hormonal spot prone combo/oily your PM suggest very dry with the amount of occlusive ingredients and misting. So I wouldn't be able to tell you what order to do things in and what to use without actually knowing your skin type and concerns. I'd scale it back immensely anyhow, a lot is superfluous and the amount of misting is excessive and unnecessary. The placement of squalane means everything else you've used after it has no chance of being of any use as it can't penetrate through the squalane and down to the skin.

Sorry if I'm being harsh but your routine show your confusion and it's going to need to get back to basics to really work for your skin. I'd suggest getting in a simple second/morning cleanse (Cerave hydrating cleanser, not expensive at all) and keeping it as simple as possible for now. I can't really advice on the rest unless I know your skin issues (I'm assuming anti ageing is the main concern). Can I also ask, the Verso night cream and eye cream, have you used it already as that's quite the investment for someone on a limited budget and aside from the eye serum I don't really think the other products are worth the asking price.

CGM CHAT That makes sense Sophie. I do like her approach since it isn't encouraging just trying everything that takes your fancy. The recent post she made about the golden triangle of healthy hair that focuses on balance rather than jumping from one excess to the opposite end of it was a really helpful read. I have no interest in trying everything, I just want to know what will be beneficial to my hair and she does seem to encourage that more.

I think it also helps that the products she likes are the ones I like on paper, so it's a rather odd form of validation.

I've been meaning to try the rice rinse, what do you do with the rice though, as it doesn't look very edible as it looks so mushy. Seems a shame to just toss it out.

I’m thinking of splurging a bit on a lockdown face treat - but when I saw the price of biologists recherche Vernix I just couldn’t bring myself to do it! I just fancied a mask or amazing cream - I need to give myself a bit of TLC, have never felt so burnt out.

Here’s the rest of my routine, any other tweaks gratefully received. Thank you lovely 🐌 people.

AM
Cleanse - Cerave or Decleor cream
Timeless Vit C
Timeless Q10 or Luxe tan
Cerave lotion, possibly REN eye cream
SPF 50

PM
Body shop camomile balm cleanse
Cerave cleanse
Alternate nights: Paula’s choice retinol treatment/ BR P50/ Olay regenerist cream (which is effectively a night off for my skin and where I’d like to add something more lovely)

What is your skin type and waht are your skin concerns @CakeandCoffeeQueen ?

The cleansers aren't good
Your day moisturiser has been discontinued globally
You're not using an actual moisturiser at night
Niacinamide above 5% will cause redness and irritation
I'm guessing your products aren't absorbing properly
The Sukin mist isn't very good

My recommendations (without skin type or concerns information):

Cerave hydrating cleanser and moisturising lotion (not the SPF version)
Merumaya cleanser for night time (if you another product for part of a double cleanse)
Replace the Sukin with Clinique Moisture Surge spray or www.superdrug.com/Skin/Moisturisers/B-Essence-Facial-Lotion/p/605300
SPF of 30 or more
Niacinamide at 4% or 5% (if required)
Retinol a few times a week (I like La Roche Posay as a non prescription product)
Spots, flaky skin or sebaceous filaments: Paula's Choice BHA (not everyday)
If you want an oil, it's the last step at night (I like Revolution Night Restore Oil)
Oily skin, sebaceous filaments, blackheads - a clay mask, once or twice a week

@botemp thank you so much for getting back to me and all your help. Your completely right i’m confused. I can feel myself being drawn in by CH wanting to buy, buy, buy!

I cant believe I forgot to put my skin type in my post. I’m 36, normal skin with a few hormonal breakouts around my chin. My main concern is putting in a routine now (Other than soap and water & moisturiser), i’m starting it get 11’s which I think is mainly down to a pain condition I have.

I haven’t started doing it all yet, I wanted to check it was okay before I started introducing more.

I’m currently
AM:
cleansing - what one you recommend?

Caffeine eye cream - inkey list

Mist - sukin

Collagen booster

Moisturiser- environ skin esseniA (I get this for b’days/Xmas) but up for trying something different If you think it’s not good.

SPF- biore U 50

PM
Cleanse- inkey list double

Cleanse - the ordinary

Mist - sukin

Collagen boater

Verso night cream/eye cream (I have samples but would be able to continue b’day/Xmas pressie if you think it’s worth it).

Or using up samples of skin food or green people

Rosehip oil

I’m happy to stop the HA and niacamide and will see about returning. I’ve stopped using it a few days ago because I thought it’s drying my out.

I haven’t started the Squalane, Q10 or bakuchoil yet because I wasn’t sure where to put them in the routine (bakuchoil as night cream was my plan)

I’ve almost finished the ordinary cleanser (which I use AM and second PM - any recommendations?)

Thank you again for your input and patience, i’m happy to be told what to buy/when to use it/where to put it!

Coffee&CakeQueen

Cake, your existing routine is a lot more reassuring than the proposed one. Sorry to hear about your pain condition

The reality is hormonal brakeouts are as they suggest hormonal, so we can only really manage them with skincare. It is worth looking at your BC, I know implants and spirals often seem to ramp up the skin issues when they're at the tail end of their life cycle. You could consider introducing a BHA topically, the Paula's Choice 2% perfecting liquid in the travel size (£10 iirc) lasts a good while if just used in the breakout prone area.

Cleanser as I mentioned previously, Cerave hydrating cleanser, affordable and does the job well.

Squalane cleanser alternative, if you can get hold of it the Simple Cleansing Oil is very affordable and works well as a first cleanser.

The environ moisturiser, I can't really say if that's worth it. I'm personally not a big advocate of spending big on moisturiser with active ingredients which tend to be derivatives as that's easier to formulate. Probably better off moving towards a separate vitamin c serum and retinol instead.

I don't think the Verso would be worth the investment. If you have normal skin and are not especially sensitive I'd go for a different retinol. If you're not going down the prescription route I'd consider getting the Medik8 Crystal Retinaldehyde as a birthday present. Officially you should start at the lower strength but you can contact Medik8 for samples and I'd try the medium strength and see how you get on.

Squalane, I don't think you need it. It's really only for dry skin as an extra layer and you already have rosehip oil that you're using.

Q10 is an antioxidant serum so morning makes the most sense for that but Vitamin C would be the better bet, but if you're intending to use the Q10 as you already have it, use that for now and move to vitamin C later when the Q10 is finished.

Bakuchiol as night cream sounds like a plan, however bakuchiol needs to be used more often than retinol, so if your day time moisturiser is running low I'd just start using it AM and PM when that's finished. By the time that's finished you can move on to a retinol.

I'd suggest to just keep things simple for now, and replace things when they run out with something similar or an upgrade to a traditional active. No need to add everything all at once, get familiar with your skin, feel free to ask questions on here, always happy to help

Shrew, sorry I'm terrible with treats for the face recs. I get mostly excited by SPFs these days and less about comfy invigorating plush creams or cleansers. The Vernix is amazing, feoutus skin, but no, don't get it for the stupid price (I just pester the sales assistants to give me some samples of it whenever I pick up P50 ), I can only use it as a mask as continued use just makes me break out (it's heavy as a moisturiser). The pestle and mortar hydrate moisturiser is very lovely to use, doesn't do anything amazing but feels nice. I'm trying to think of something else but coming up empty, unfortunately. P50 for the body instead?

Ah don’t worry Bo - thanks for your thoughts! What’s your favourite SPF these days?

I might give the josh rosebrook balm and spritz a whirl. I know they won’t do have the job if my actives but if they make me feel less haggard and even remotely pampered right now I’ll take that! Has anyone tried either? Possibly too fragranced.

How have I only just found this thread???

Have sensitive dehyrated skin, so in addition to drinking more water, I have also simplified my skin routine.

What do people think.

Ordinary squalene cleanser
Dermalogica barrier repair - the one that doesn't make my skin red
Heliocare 50 SPF

Night - Ordinary Retinoid with barrier repair.

Thanks @Thisenglishlife, I realised I didn’t put my skin type in my post, I’ve just replied to @botemp before I saw your post.

Thank you for your advice. Can I ask a couple of questions to make sure I understand please?

So the inkey list double cleanser is more of a make up remover?

The Cerave hydrating cleanser is AM and first cleanse PM (followed by Merumaya cleanser PM)

Can I ask what’s wrong sukin mist? It was recommended on another group so i thought it would be okay!

Has environ skin esseniA been withdrawn? I had a quick google and couldn’t find anything... is it not worth the money anyway and better to go with The Cerave lotion?

Sorry if i’m being frustrating, I have tried to research, read blog and watch video but I think I’ve got myself in a right middle!

Thank you again

Thank you SO much @botemp i’m going print out your suggestions and write out a plan.

I'm currently having a hormonal breakout. Weirdly I've noticed they only ever seem to be on the right hand side of my chin and jaw

CGM
Washed hair today, did a chelating(?) wash then used jessicurl rockin ringlets and spiralicious so will see how it turns out. My hair isn't very happy at the minute and I've not worked out why hence the chelating wash as a fresh start!

Makeup
Lisa Eldridge has just put a v simple eye makeup on YouTube so going to have a go at that. I ordered a melt eyeliner as they're on sale with free international shipping (win)

What's the general view on tanning drops? Either the Tan-Luxe Super Glow Hyaluronic Self-Tan Serum or the Clarins drops? Would they interfere with anything else? Anyone used them? Not looking for a full on tan, but be nice to be a little less ghostly. Not at the expsense of my skin though!

Shrew, the Rosebrook stuff seems heavily pushed through social media so I've kind of been ignoring it but I think it's more plant extracts and all that stuff rather than full on essential oils fragrant stuff. I've not looked into it properly though.

Welcome, Obama. I'm usually a bit hesitant with dermalogica as they tend to contain possible irritants but if it works for you don't change it. Focusing on barrier repair seems a good move alongside simplifying (I assume you are still cleansing at night). I'm rather tepid about the ordinary retinoids but as previously, if it works for you.

Cake, I was the one that said the Inkey double cleanse is poorly named. If you've ever used one of those eye makeup removers which you had to shake and then it separated after (usually blue and clear liquid on top of each other), it's like that, it works for eyes but probably not the best choice for the whole face.

Double cleansing is always oil based cleanser first followed by water/cream based cleanser. So balm or oil cleanser first and then something like Cerave hydrating cleanser. Oil removes makeup and sunscreen, water/cream cleanses the actual skin.

I don't see that much issue with the Sukin mist. Potentially the rose water can be irritating as it does have fragrant compounds but it doesn't sound like you're especially sensitive so I don't think it would be an issue. Whether you need it, is another question altogether, it's definitely a sensorial product as opposed to anything else.

Lockdown is doing weird things to our skin and hair Client, my hair seems to like being indoors and my skin hates it. I'm just leaving all windows and balcony doors open to somehow balance it out 🤷 You don't happen to sleep on one side, or prop your face up on your right hand all the time?

I watched the LE this morning, too, I tend to do something similar just not as strong but it made me want to try it. I don't have a soft pencil I could try it with though and my tightliner is finished too. Have you tried the Marc Jacobs she uses by any chance, I find soft pencils just disappear on me. And do I also need the melt eyeliner, $10 with free shipping is a bit of a steal. Is it any good?

Pupsie, I looked into this a while back. The active ingredient in self tanners isn't great for skin as it causes oxidative stress and does cause premature ageing in the long term as well as impacting the health of the skin barrier in the short. It's still the preferable choice between normal tanning and fake tanning but the ideal is to do neither. It won't interfere with anything, it may just fade a bit quicker but not massively so. I tend to stick with a liquid bronzer for face and still use fake tan on the body (when I remember) as that hardly sees daylight anyhow so a couple of days a year feels manageable for me, but it's up to you what you do and don't want to do. Hot and flashy tans her face throughout summer, I believe.

I have wondered about gradual vs single application and if that matters (ie. is one methode more damaging than the other by exposing it to the DHA in smaller amounts but more often vs one larger amount a single time but I haven't found any research on it.

@botemp I haven't tried that one, have the melt one in bloodshot and 1987 and find it easy to sharpen, not so soft that you waste loads and very pigmented so yes I rate it!

Picky with eyeliners. I like them to be soft but not so soft they smudge or are tricky to sharpen and to stay in place as I line my upper waterline

I don't think I sleep on one side.. the giant lump on my jaw I suspect is actually hidradenitis supprativa, I have had a few on my face recently and they're very different from a normal spot
The chelating wash seems to have worked well, will be able to tell properly by tomorrow morning!

Thanks Bo. Which liquid bronzer do you use? Assume you take it down your neck too? I have a powder one: Bobbi Brown I think. But tbh I'm never quite sure how to use it so don't. I should probably watch a YT video. I'm generally not that bothered though. Every now and then I think it would be nice to look a bit less pale, but I soon forget about it.