🐌 Fantastic Skincare: Is Everyone Having Botox Without Me? 💉

[botemp]

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For those who are taking a peek and wondering what this all about, we mostly discuss a bit of advanced skincare here with a perspective of seeking out the right ingredients (rather than the latest new shiny product and all its empty promises) for our particular skin needs. Distinguishing the acid toners from the actives whilst avoiding the truly unimpressive and harmful ingredients with a hope to achieve a bit of anti-ageing, alleviate irritation and sensitivities with some idle chat in between. Newcomers are always welcome but please note the following:

Questions and asking for help on this thread is encouraged, however, we can’t give you a specific routine to follow and hope it works out for the best. There are no overnight miracles in skincare whether it be in the form of products or techniques. It’s about perseverance, understanding your skin, assessing its needs and responding to that in a diligent manner.

These threads were created to help those who want to learn for themselves. We’re a group of interested and invested skincare nuts happy to offer tea and sympathy and dole out advice. Everyone’s journey with skincare is different, what is universal and binds us is that through actually learning about the different active ingredients it helps us get to know our skin and help us adapt as it will change many times throughout our lives - with seasons, hormonal changes, ageing, genetics etc. It's in everyone's best interests to get to know their skin and to keep reviewing those changes with the confidence that comes from the gathered knowledge here. We really encourage you to spend the time reading through previous threads and linked info sheets that the many contributors have taken the trouble to share.

By no means are we experts, we're only a bunch of amateurs that can only respond by suggesting what we would do in your place, for any severe conditions please seek out professional help.

Ahem, and finally a little note on spending. I'm well aware these threads cause many to reach for their wallets and spend with wild abandon. There can sometimes be a bit of a frenzy surrounding the excitement around a newly discovered product or on the back of great improvements when someone reports back. This is all great, it doesn't however, mean everything that's a sudden miracle for one will be it for you. Usually, it's a light bulb moment for connecting the right skincare ingredient with an individual experiencing a specific problem. Take your time to mull over decisions and question whether it's right for you too. Skincare is highly individual, it's a slow game that should cost mostly in patience, input, education, and perseverance. Please don't make it cost you financially needlessly.

I am very slowly working on consolidating the gathered information from previous threads into easier to read formats but it’s slow going. I would suggest reading thread 1 and at the very least the following info sheets (provided they apply to you):

Where to Start

Basics of an Actives Routine

Skin Types vs. Skin Conditions Info Sheet

Anti-Ageing Info sheet

Adult Acne Info Sheet

Understanding Which Sunscreen(s) to Buy

Do I Really Need to Wear Sunscreen Every Single Day of the Year?

A Damaged Skin Barrier - Now What?

NEW SERIES:

So You Want To Buy A Retinoid - A Guide

December 2019: Time for The Snailies way more reliable and better than the MN recommends annual roundup (yes I'm still bitter about them quoting me in isolation and making me sound like a wanker please don't revoke my special image allowance privileges, MNHQ )

Also: Thread 20 in time for 2020!!! Ahem, where are my presents?

Thanks again to all that provide fantastic advice.

@thisenglishlife Yes, I do mist before Hada labo, but my face is damp from cleansing. So damp face, mist, HA, mist, moisturise. Is that correct? I don’t want to do more harm than good with HA, given the bombshell the other day that it’s not the holy grail I was hoping for

Skincare ingredients... @botemp mentioned just before about how this all started. Would there be a link to that? Or could someone provide a brief overview? I’m trying to educate myself on skincare ingredients and what to avoid or what not to buy in to.
For example regarding what not to buy in to, my sister asked my opinion on the Charlotte Tilbury magic cream. I looked the ingredients up and can’t say I was blown away (with the limited knowledge I have) Seemed expensive for what it is?

damp face, mist, HA, mist, moisturise.
Take out the second mist and it's good

Charlotte Tilbury is style over substance and there has been talk of bullying in the company, which puts me off it. I remember someone on MN saying they had something to do with them and that the company were spending more on the packaging than the ingredients.

Magic Cream inci - incidecoder.com/products/charlotte-tilbury-charlottes-magic-cream
Glycerin is the sixth ingredient and shea butter 14th, everything else interesting is way down the list. Conclusion - you can get something similar or better for less. Save your money and get a good serum, retinol and sunscreen instead.

Well packaging usually reveals a lot about a product (anything shiny is immediately suspect) as is the brand. A makeup brand is never going to be anything other than makeup. CT is indeed overpriced and terribly fragranced and fragrance is the most common irritant and if you're not irritated by it already it's very possible you can become irritated by it in the long term. Any skin with issues is best treated as if it's sensitive skin, it just avoids a lot of headaches.

First thread is linked in the OP, although it's old and it's probably not a very summarised read, the info sheets in the OP, although they don't necessarily focus on ingredients give a better summary.

English, I appreciate your willingness to contribute but I am finding it rather black and white when skincare (specifically OTC products) really isn't an exact science and there's little wrong or right about. It's not very helpful to someone just starting out to be called out in such a manner that they're doing it all wrong because they're not doing the way you do or they should be buying another product because you prefer it. None of us are experts here and everyone is different, they'll appreciate different things and they'll learn and make mistakes as they go along. The only thing it's worth being strict about is use of SPF alongside sun sensitising products and don't use prescription medication without a prescription and/or medical supervision.

Fete, skincare order is not that strict, outside of bookending with cleansing at one end and SPF on the other there's a rough guide of thinnest to thickest and strongest actives with the lowest pH to weakest but it's really not that strict. Heavy occlusives make penetration more difficult so those tend to come at the end. Water before or after HA is not something to get worried about, it works either way.

Another one - Zelens Z 22 that was in CH kit 2... the ingredients left me confused. I am fairly new to all of this, but I would typically try to avoid something with so much perfume in?

Just trying to decipher what skincare ingredients should be a red flag.

Sorry, I was trying to recommend what I thought were better products in terms ingredients and value. Of course, everyone's results will vary.

Would you recommend mist, HA, mist, moisturise? (I don't think that the double misting is necessary, esp. so close)

It seems good at the start:
Perilla Frutescens Seed Oil, Oryza Sativa (Rice) Germ/Bran Oil, Camellia Oleifera Seed Oil, Squalane, Cetearyl Ethylhexanoate, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Isopropyl Myristate, Rosa Canna Fruit Oil, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Oil

Then becomes mostly essential oils (which I believe could be sensitising over time):
Citrus Aurantium Bergamia Peel Oil, Parfum (Fragrance), Tocopherol, Citrus Limon Peel Oil, Citrus Aurantium Leaf Oil, Litsea Cubeba Fruit Oil, Citrus Aurantium Peel Oil Distilled, Cymbopogon Citratus Leaf Oil, Elettaria Cardomomum Seed Oil, Lavandula Angustifolia Herb Oil, Rosmarinus Officinalis Leaf Oil, Pinus Pinaster Twig Leaf Oil, Pelargonium Graveolens Leaf Oil, Rosa Centifolia Flower Oil, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Citrus Aurantium Peel Oil Expressed, Citrus Aurantium Amara Flower Extract, Jasminum Officinale Flower Oil, Cistus Ladaniferus Leaf Oil, Ocimum Basilcum Herb Oil, Limonene, Linalool, Citral, Geraniol, Citronellol

@thisenglishlife I feel like I may as well spray my Coco Mademoiselle all over my face 🙈 What’s its purpose? Just to feel nice on the skin? If I were spending so much £ on a facial oil or serum i’d want it to have proven ingredients in that do something for me long term. Then again, maybe that Zelens oil keep the face soft and supple long term? I don’t know.

I haven’t ventured far in terms of serums yet. I am only using Vit C, hyaluronic acid and also just introduced a Garden of Wisdom Niacinamide serum some evenings, but i’d be interested to see what people are using serum wise and what benefits they get from it. I believe (From limited research) that’s where you should spend your money, on serums? Rather than cleansers and moisturisers?

Serum wise I use
Alpha h hydration concentrate when my skin is v dry
Superdrug simply pure hydration - I love this, it's so soothing
Murad revitalixir. I don't even know what this actually does but my skin just looks "better" when I use it
Sometimes I use oils too, REN omega 3 or la belle lune facial oil

Are those ingredients the zelens?

I don't know, seems very expensive (£70?) when you could have the ordinary rose hip oil for £9. But interesting if that's where you should be spending your money. I am genuinely learning so much from this thread!

I'm just reviewing my SPF products/use now that I'm using Tret.

This morning I went for a run first thing and applied Heliocare SPF50 gel. It was okay but I think it makes my eyes sting a little (not just today from running/sweat).

Came home and double cleansed after showering. Not going out for the rest of the day so applied Biore Watery Essence. I guess I'll need to double cleanse later too? Or was this morning's double cleanse not necessary?

I don't tend to sit out in the sun at all unless on holiday and by a pool in which case I'd have my Global hat and more heavy duty SPF on. So I stick to the Biore most of the year, but am I right in thinking that it's not suitable for hot summer weather when spending anything more than a few minutes outdoors, so say going for a walk or sitting in a shaded pub garden?

I'm also using LRP Anthelios. I don't tend to top up in the day but I probably should be? A typical day might be:

SPF applied mid morning, drive to work, drive home around 3-4pm. Go for a walk at 5 or 6pm.

Also I'm interested in the Super Goop mist as mentioned up thread but note it's not available at the moment.

What do others do re topping up?

Has anyone tried this Kiehl's SPF?

pupsie did you mention 4 years since the thread started? I’ve been here almost since the start (as JDSTER). I’ve learnt so much that’s now just ingrained.

I thought I’d update on my current routine. For info I’m mid 40s with fair, oily skin.

A.M
Some sort of wash off cleanser currently Alex Steiner for Primark BHA wash (no longer available) or Jan Marini bioglycolic

Timeless Vit C followed by LRP toleriane moisturiser (another discontinued one)

SPF Biore bright milk spf 50. I have some canmake mermaid spf 50 but it hasn’t felt like it’s protected my skin well enough in the recent sunny days we’ve had. I have some samples of Heliocare and I might purchase some for summer.

P.M
Simple cleansing oil and Simple eye makeup remover. Both great and very inexpensive.

Second cleanse LRP hydrating cleanser.

Tretinoin (Currently 0.25 & 4% niacinamide from dermatica) I have used 0.5% prior which was fine so I’ll ask dermatica to send 0.5 for my next month.

LRP toleriane double repair moisturiser (bought in US. Will just replace with cerave when it’s done)

Twice a week at night, switch out tret for BR P50.

Occasional clay based face mask.

pupsie I’ve used this to top up SPF. www.lookfantastic.com/la-roche-posay-anthelios-anti-shine-sun-protection-invisible-spf50-face-mist-75ml/11393009.html

Thanks @ClientQ I’ll take a look at those for possible future purchase. Already have my eye on the Superdrug one. Heard some great things about it.

Yes Jed. And I remember you well. (Don't tell Bo it's been that long: she's in denial!).

I've got the same prescription from Dermatica. Happy to stick with it for a while as I've been on every other night. Will give it another couple of weeks then change to every night. I guess I'll not have used all of this one up when the next one arrives, although I am using 2 pumps per night. I wonder if you can take a month's holiday if you've got a stash that's built up over time. Say if you go on hols and don't take it with you (fat chance for the forseeable) or you use it every other night.

I'll check out that SPF. Thanks.

English I think all the misting is nonsense and don't really know why it's suddenly so popular (there was a brief period of it in Korean/Japanese skincare circles a few years back, the 'skin method' and the moisturise sandwiches) I assume it originates from some Facebook group or influencer currently. It gives quick results and troubleshoots weaknesses temporarily but it doesn't mean I feel it's necessary in any shape or form (with the exception of very dry skin that struggles that absorb anything). It's not harming anyone though and people seem to enjoy it, who am I to piss on anyone's chips? The sensible skincare recommendations tend to be really utilitarian, so whatever motivates someone to get into the habit of a routine and enjoy the moment 🤷

Zelens the brand frustrates me quite a bit as he's a respected dermatologist (unlike some other brands who just slap Dr on like Barbara Sturm who has a doctorate in podiatry 🤣 yet presents herself as some sort of skincare expert/dermatologist) but his products are very counter to general dermatologist advice, essential oils, fragrance being the main culprits. He's a dermatologist specialising in skin cancer but has one not so interesting (in terms of uv filters) SPF 30. I'm just left confused by it all. I want it to be good but it's just overpriced skincare with irritants all other dermatologists insist you move away from. I've tried a few travel/sample size things that were GWP but it just left me unimpressed.

In terms of where to spend money. I always say SPF first because you need to find ones you enjoy using otherwise you won't use them/won't use enough, it's one bottle a month for the face (just the face, with the neck you're using it up twice as fast) that you should be using, so it is an ongoing expense. I also tend to use different SPFs at different times of the year so tend to have multiples.

Then spend money on the serums that have backing, so that's vitamin c and retinoids. Then support ingredients, the vitamin B family, ceramides, humectants, etc. That's usually in your moisturiser but they're sometimes in your sunscreen and serum too. Then cleansers. Acid exfoliators tend to be an optional thing but they tend to last for a long time so I prefer to pay more for a solid formulation and soothing ingredients so they don't tend to work out too pricey in terms of use but when just trying to figure out which form works best for you it's probably best to try a few affordable ones first. This is all assuming you have tolerant to actives skin, difficult sensitive skin will be splitting money on very different things.

Pupsie, a single oil cleanse would probably have been fine, in both cases (assuming no makeup to take off at night). Is the supergoop out of stock at revolve? They're usually quick about restocking, maybe down to Covid19. I've used a sample of that Kiehl's SPF and had a really bad reaction to it. Not sure what it is, but it is one of those that's formulated to be sold worldwide so limited to the filters allowed in the US and those tend to be the more unstable ones (which I tend to experience as irritating more often than not).

Jedstre and Pupsie bunch of pot stirrers, leave me to my denial already, I'm still a bright eyed puppy, I swear..

Thanks Bo. I was specifically looking for the spray mentioned. I did wonder about getting this. It seems like a good way to test the products.

I'm confused by their products now. Which one was being discussed upthread?

Was it this one?

Yes that's the one, the little travel kit does seem handy.

Boo, I just spotted the spray is not available for international export

What sunscreens do you like @botemp ?

I don't use a mist myself, but people seem to like/find them comfortable and I think they're generally harmless.

I like ceramide based moisturisers too - especially good for dry or damaged skin (in my experience).

Have you seen this Barbara Sturm video?

It's her bedtime routine. Definitely no retinol, vitamin C, etc. All delivered in fabulous silk pyjamas, a Rolex watch and tons of gold jewellery (including two Cartier bracelets).

You failed to mention the Botox and fillers English 🙈 I think I discovered that the Dr stood for doctorate in the comments section of that video.

The whole brand seems to revolve around overpriced hyaluronic acid (it's a really cheap ingredient to make and to formulate). It's kind of the issue with all these buzz ingredients, currently it seems to be niacinamide (another old faithful that's cheap and easy to formulate), there's a 15% serum now, no one needs that high of a concentration 🤷

I think they also do a blood cream, but only by appointment, they draw blood and filter something out of it and add it to a base cream. Again I'm baffled but who knows maybe it's the secret to doing a Benjamin Button.

Augustinus Bader is another that leaves me utterly confused ££££ for a proprietary ingredient that's heavily patented so no clue what it is. All the research is done by the brand so hardly impartial.

I like a few Japanese ones, the canmake uv is good and very cheap, I like it for Spring. There's one from Kose Sekkisei, they changed the name I think it's whitening UV milk now. I like the Bioderma Cicabio and purito centella green something in winter and Frezyderm velvet in summer. I don't like altruist on my face but I use it from the neck down and suncover for the rest of the body. I like the heliocare mineral but hate the fragrance of it ( luckily I don't react to it. I tend to try any new ones that take my fancy but these are the ones I always come back to.

@botemp have you seen her new scalp serum? £80!!!!!

My scalp does not need a hyaluronic acid product, especially one that contains alcohol denatured as the third ingredient I take that back if I dry out me scalp with all that alcohol I might like some hyaluronic acid after all 🤦

I'm getting rather wary with all these scalp serums all of a sudden. The biologique recherche product is in the same price range but it's a giant 250ml bottle, at least that seems to offer some value in comparison to this and the drunk elephant one.

I spotted that - CG for so long makes me read ingredients lists. Seems crazy

I’ve tried out a few sunscreens and I’d thought I’d give a few reviews as people seem to be looking for new ones.

Mimitika Face sunscreen - most accessible in the UK. Lovely and no white cast but a bit too moisturising for my combination skin in the summer.

Nivea Water Gel - very typical of Japanese sunscreens with alcohol high on the ingredients list but it didn’t cause any sensitivity, and worked very well. Also seemed to last the best.

Missha Aqua Sun Gel - current favourite . Leaves a pretty matte finish so I’d only recommend for oily or combination skin and also contains alcohol.

However I can’t get anymore of the missha because of CV shipping so I’ve ordered the Kose suncut waterproof essence from japan as it’s a huge bottle and I had a £5 eBay voucher (?) so it was only £8.

As it gets into summer I’m looking for a sweat proof sunscreen if anybody has any recommendations.

I’ve also recently discovered that the skin on my neck is very sensitive as I broke out into a painful rash when I used a very cheap sunscreen I picked up in Target while I was in the US last year. I think I’ll have to start using face sunscreens on my neck - which I know that I should have been doing anyway.

What do people look for in a summer Vs winter SPF, given that both are likely factor 50?