🐌 Fantastic Skincare: Shitting About All Day Discussing Co Dictionary

[botemp]

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For those who are taking a peek and wondering what this all about, we mostly discuss a bit of advanced skincare here with a perspective of seeking out the right ingredients (rather than the latest new shiny product and all its empty promises) for our particular skin needs. Distinguishing the acid toners from the actives whilst avoiding the truly unimpressive and harmful ingredients with a hope to achieve a bit of anti-ageing, alleviate irritation and sensitivities with some idle chat in between. Newcomers are always welcome but please note the following:

Questions and asking for help on this thread is encouraged, however, we can’t give you a specific routine to follow and hope it works out for the best. There are no overnight miracles in skincare whether it be in the form of products or techniques. It’s about perseverance, understanding your skin, assessing its needs and responding to that in a diligent manner.

These threads were created to help those who want to learn for themselves. We’re a group of interested and invested skincare nuts happy to offer tea and sympathy and dole out advice. Everyone’s journey with skincare is different, what is universal and binds us is that through actually learning about the different active ingredients it helps us get to know our skin and help us adapt as it will change many times throughout our lives - with seasons, hormonal changes, ageing, genetics etc. It's in everyone's best interests to get to know their skin and to keep reviewing those changes with the confidence that comes from the gathered knowledge here. We really encourage you to spend the time reading through previous threads and linked info sheets that the many contributors have taken the trouble to share.

By no means are we experts, we're only a bunch of amateurs that can only respond by suggesting what we would do in your place, for any severe conditions please seek out professional help.

Ahem, and finally a little note on spending. I'm well aware these threads cause many to reach for their wallets and spend with wild abandon. There can sometimes be a bit of a frenzy surrounding the excitement around a newly discovered product or on the back of great improvements when someone reports back. This is all great, it doesn't however, mean everything that's a sudden miracle for one will be it for you. Usually, it's a light bulb moment for connecting the right skincare ingredient with an individual experiencing a specific problem. Take your time to mull over decisions and question whether it's right for you too. Skincare is highly individual, it's a slow game that should cost mostly in patience, input, education, and perseverance. Please don't make it cost you financially needlessly.

I am very slowly working on consolidating the gathered information from previous threads into easier to read formats but it’s slow going. I would suggest reading thread 1 and at the very least the following info sheets (provided they apply to you):

Where to Start

Basics of an Actives Routine

Skin Types vs. Skin Conditions Info Sheet

Anti-Ageing Info sheet

Adult Acne Info Sheet

Understanding Which Sunscreen(s) to Buy

Do I Really Need to Wear Sunscreen Every Single Day of the Year?

A Damaged Skin Barrier - Now What?

NEW SERIES:

So You Want To Buy A Retinoid - A Guide

JUNE 2019: Autocorrect is our main source of entertainment these days at least our snouts are looking good 🐽

@Karcheer Aha! The penny drops! I thought it was about using an oil then a foaming cleanser to remove the oil. This makes more sense

Drunk Elephant does make decent products but they do tend to sell you on the kitchen sink and it's just too much, you end up damaging your skin barrier and then you're dehydrated.

You're both sort of right, as much as CH likes to think she invented double cleansing it's a staple of Asian skincare routines. Over there it is an oil based cleanser followed by a foam cleanser (usually) as that works well in that humidity. The interpretation over here is more a double cleanse with an oil based cleanser followed by a water based cleanser. Basically what you're doing is seperating an ordinary cleanser which usually contains water and emollients and oils and using one after the other. The oil is good for breaking apart makeup and SPF but not that great at cleansing the actual skin which a water based cleanser is as the surfactant (which is water activated) is immediately active. It's not absolutely necessary though, you can get away with single cleanses but it's preference. I'm not the most diligent cleanser and my face doesn't like a lot of rubbing so two gentle rounds with a cleanser means I actually get everything off without too much aggravation.

I'd have to look what SPFs SpaceNK carry, they do sell a nice moisturiser there, very sauna face friendly and it's quite good value as the bottle is big. It's the Malin + Goetz vitamin E moisturiser, the one without SPF.

Is it Liquid Gold that's in all the AC? Not the biggest fan of Pixi as it smells weird contains fragrance and it's a bit of a wild card how people react. I'll see what SpaceNK are stocking, the Dennis Gross Alpha Beta exfoliating pads are very nice, a tad wasteful, but they are good. Not sure if it's doubling up with the moisturiser though.

BlueSky yes Karcheer is right - first cleanse oil or balm, second cleanse something a bit more robust (a few of us here are using cerave hydrating cleanser) but I wouldn’t recommend a foaming one especially at this time of year as they can be harsh/drying.

Glad Bo was here to help you, that’s a lot of products

I don’t think any of us who post here bought advent calendars so I wouldn’t worry too much about mentioning products from them - maybe just mention the item you want advice on without saying it was from a calendar (if you’ve opened in advance) in case people who did buy them are reading.

I’m a bit worried about timeless changing their Vit C as I really liked both the texture and the dropper, so won’t be impressed if they’ve made it oily or given it a spurty spout 🐳

In other news I tried some stick on eye brows at the weekend, was not expecting much given the price but was quite impressed, these are they
Brows

I just had timeless Vit C delivered in the last two weeks so that change to the packaging is very recent.

bluesky could you buy makeup at space NK with your points/credit? I really like NARS tinted moisturiser (not the oil free one, even though I do have oily skin) it’s fragrance free, oil free and non comedogenic so won’t clog pores. It also has an spf but I don’t rely on it and still use a separate spf.

Nars concealer is lovely too.

Bluesky you could sell any unopened product that you you can't return on eBay. I've done this before with goodie bags from events. It would work well with the unwanted advent calendar products too.

I do like DE's marula oil and have been using it for about a year.

I buy from Space NK:

Dr Dennis Grossman Alpha Beta peel pads (use once per week)

Chantecaille tinted moisturiser

Ultrasun SPF (mainly for sport/running)

Bumble and Bumble Invisible Oil Primer

Kate Somerville Goats Milk moisturiser & cleansing milk (latest additions). Really like them.

I've also been trying the Paula's Choice boosters: peptides and niacinamide.

Nice to have some new products after a year of no change.

Thanks everyone for enlightening me on double cleansing. I get it now!

@Jedstre and @Pupsiecola some good Space NK recommendations there - especially the tinted moisturiser which sounds promising. I’m going to pop in later this week to try it and see about SPF too

@botemp I actually have some of the Malin and Goetz vitamin E moisturiser (2 bottles - 1 from my mum) - I neglected to mention it because didn’t think it looked that promising- what do I know! I also have the M+G grapefruit cleanser- would that be any good or should I buy the cerave one?

I also have Dr Dennis Gross alpha beta pads. I only have 3, but I guess I could trial them and see if I want to repurchase at Space NK. I also have first aid beauty glycolic pads (a pot) - no idea what they do or when to use (if at all). I have nip and fab pads left from earlier this year when I started to dabble.

I do have a number of other products I neglected to mention that I haven’t opened. A Caudalie toner (vinopure clear skin clarifying) and Kate Somerville wrinkle warrior. I was going to pass those onto SIL though. I have products coming out of my ears! I’m not rich and don’t usually spend out like this, just had a one off splurge! I’m not expecting you to look any of these up though!

I have followed your recommendations and this evening followed this routine:

Votary cleansing oil with cloth
M&G grapefruit cleanser (in lieu of cerave)
Algenist serum (sparingly)
Herbivore orchid oil
Dr Dennis Gross Alpha beta exfoliating moisturiser
(Plus M+G lip moisturiser and BBrow oil for brows)

I have a couple of questions please... I’m not using an eye cream with this routine so rubbed the herbivore oil round my eyes. Is this ok or do I need a separate eye cream? Or do I just use the eye cream in the day only? I did not use the REN Aha toner- should I have done? I used it a couple of times last week and think it might have made me sore around the nose for a few hours but thought that was par of the course using actives?

@Pupsiecola I have actually already sold a few things on eBay such as Drunk Elephant, expensive perfumes I don’t like and votary oil. This was the haul I decided to keep, but I probably sold the wrong things I noticed lots of people selling on AC and GWP goods. I was happy to recoup some of my money- plus the buyers got a real bargain (about 70% off rrp). This seems to be a good time of year to pick up genuine fresh products on eBay (if you do some due diligence)

@botemp Yes the Liquid Gold - is it any good? (ps sorry for separate posts... feeding a flailing baby who is flapping at my screen like a penguin ) I will avoid the Pixi tonic. I think the Dr DG range sounds better and it has great reviews.

Can I check I have the morning routine right please?...

Dermalogica daily superfolient
Dr Sebagh vit C mixed into his repair serum
Malin + Goetz Vitamin E moisturiser
Caudalie Eye cream (when this runs out can I just use the M+G vit E in the eye area? Or would you recommend something else that works for dark circles?)

I then need to add an SPF (dreading sauna face ). Could I just use the Nars tinted moisturiser which has SPF in it? If this product suits of course.

Thanks so much for your help and time - I really do appreciate it.

I’ve just noticed that you have linked to the previous threads and help sheets in the OP. Wow - such a great resource thanks for the effort you put in. Having a read now- this should keep me busy during the night feeds

That's a lot of toners BlueSky.

You can look most products up on INCI Decoder (on phone so won't link it but do Google it and it should come up).

Also Caroline Hirons' cheat sheets (check her website) are really good. I found them very informative when I was starting out.

I’ve woken up this morning after last nights double cleanse and exfoliating/ hydrating/ moisturising routine with beautiful skin. My pores look clearer/ tighter but my skin is soft and deeply moisturised. There is a spot erupting on the side of my chin which could be due to tackling the congestion or even hormonal as my baby is weaning and dropping feeds.

@Pupsiecola yes it’s too many toners Don’t worry I’m not planning to use all of them at once I just need to find one that works for me and keep repurchasing it

I’m off to read those cheat sheets now and still reading Thread number 1 which is enlightening.

One question I have always wondered is why do we need to cleanse in the morning when all we’ve done is sleep (on clean sheets) and not touched the face. I hope it doesn’t sound gross, but I just sort of splash my face in the shower every morning and rub my skin a bit. I don’t wash it properly like I do my hands. Doesn’t a morning cleanse remove the oils that you used last night? Sorry if that’s a stupid question!

Some don't need to cleanse in the morning but imo it's best too. We sweat in the night and unless you sleep on your back half your face is always on a sweaty/dust mitey pillow, which in my case only gets washed every 7-10 days. Then there's the dermodex (don't Google!!). So yeah, it's best to do a quick cleanse.

Although my husband doesn't use a single skincare product and has good skin. Although half of it is covered by a beard.

Can you use points in the SpaceNK sale, it usually starts Christmas eve for members and there are always loads of good makeup things to buy and usually the Diptique Christmas candles. SpaceNK is definitely more a makeup than skincare destination for me. I'd be buying my point's worth in Surratt if you left me to it

I'm not familiar with the M&G grapefruit cleanser, it looks to be ok but I don't know the pH so wouldn't be able to tell you for certain.

As for morning cleansing, it depends, if you're dry you're usually better off without a cleanser than with. There are mornings when I'm in a rush and just slap on sunscreen head to an exercise class and do a bit more of a routine after and I don't look wrecked, it's just slightly more uneven in texture. Someone oily, however, will have had a lot of excess sebum build up at night and water just isn't going to cut it to shift it. The main reason you use cleanser in the AM is to get everything off that hasn't been absorbed from last night that will just sit there and oxidise, there's no purpose to it anymore and whatever you put on it in terms of actives has the best possibility of getting in, oils keep everything out and I should point out that in yesterday's evening routine you probably should have swapped round the order of oil and moisturiser. It's not life or death it just means the actives in the moisturiser have less of an opportunity to do what they're there for.

I have had a look at SpaceNK spfs and there aren't that many options considering you're still breastfeeding. There's one big UV filter that's best to avoid and a few other ones where it's not that dangerous but if you want to avoid risk altogether a mineral spf is the safest choice, so that leaves the Ultrasun mineral face, I'd go for spf30 for now as mineral sunscreens are rarely that nice to use and you're not using anything that actively requires spf50, but do use the right amount. Relying on spf in makeup is a big no-no you will never be wearing enough to get any sort of protection.

I don't consider eye creams necessary, no. They can be helpful if your skin is noticeably different there in terms of dryness, or as a base for makeup. There's not much that helps with the more traditional eye issues like hereditary bags or dark circles. If dark circles are there because you're tired than a good concealer is the only answer, if it's ageing and the skin has gotten thinner there and made the darkness more noticeable than retinoids and/or vit C can be helpful but not safe whilst breastfeeding. I'm not sure I'd be using the Dennis Gross up and around my eyes though, so in that sense the herbivore seems like an ok hack so long as it doesn't irritate.

Acid toners are a bit rampant at the moment (I blame Caroline Hirons for this mostly, actually), are they necessary, not really. But they deliver pretty instantaneous results and people get hooked on that and think this is 'proper' skincare, overuse them chasing the initial high and because they're marketed as toners and end up fucking up their skin. I've lost track of the number of people that came on here with issues and it was usually down to acid overuse, specifically nip + fab pads. An acid toner shouldn't be stingy, it sounds like you went a bit too fast too soon. You use an acid toner maybe twice a week, possibly 3, some can do every other day but it depends on the acid and the resilience of the skin. A sensitive-skinned person can usually only handle once a week, if that.

I'd say keep the DG Alpha Beta for a weekly treatment, just after cleansing. The first aid pads when you're short on time in place of a proper cleanse, just forget the water it's just a quick wipe of a pad, then moisturiser and sunscreen and head out the door. There really isn't a requirement for an acid toner at all times.

Ok I think I answered it all...

Sorry, should have specified, *in place of a proper cleanse in the morning only, an acid pad won't get off makeup and sunscreen at night.

Ok I’m definitely going to properly cleanse my face after googling dermodex (couldn’t resist ). Thanks to your excellent explanations I am committed to a morning routine now.

My skin has felt great all day. For the first time since I’ve been using moisturiser I haven’t had the face sauna @botemp describes, so the Malin + Goetz Vit E moisturiser is a winner. My skin also looks and feels more hydrated. I do have a big spot erupting though- but it’s definitely not a breakout. It’s probably just due to my skin getting a proper clean.

The Malin + Goetz cleanser feels ok, a little drying perhaps but it’s cleaning my skin better than the votary oil, just as botemp explained. I didn’t bother using the votary oil for tonight’s cleanse as I stayed in today and went makeup free.

I’ve swapped around the dr Dennis gross moisturiser and herbivore oil. Have used the skin elixir emulsion around my eyes because it says on the label that you can. I will only use this in the evening and use the Malin + Goetz around my eyes in the morning. I’ve abandoned the Caudalie premier cru because it’s so thick, I found myself rubbing my skin too hard to distribute it around the eye.

I will be looking out for a new eye cream to purchase, something good for dark circles. Does anyone know if caffeine a good ingredient for this issue?

Baby is with childminder tomorrow morning for a trial session so I will spend my free time reading the cheat sheets. I never knew skincare was so complicated but I’m keen to learn.

@Pupsiecola My hubby has good skin too without doing much to it. I think partly it’s hereditary but also because men don’t wear makeup.

@botemp

Yes I think I can use points in the Space NK sale. I might look at the SURRATT eye baton- had it before and it’s fabulous. Doesn’t last long though.

Thanks for explaining about the sunscreen and breastfeeding risk. I’m actually not too worried about minor risks. Obviously I wouldn’t go for something that is known to be dangerous. But I do have 1 glass of wine and breastfeed. I’m going to read up on it myself tomorrow.

Once I finish breastfeeding I am interested in the retinoids but hopefully I’ll be getting more sleep then so they might not be as bad. I do have a very good concealer that makes them disappear and doesn’t crease (By Terry).

@botemp

Yes CH and Sali Hughes seem to have made acid toners popular. As I said I rarely properly cleansed (just washed my face) and would swipe the pads every now and then. I was aware about sun exposure risk so never used them regularly and limited use in summer. Is this the same as chemical exfoliating? Many moons ago (I’m guessing 12 years) I ordered some Paula’s choice toner from the US when I was suffering from an acne breakout. It helped but looking back it was probably hormonal. I found out about it on some US blog, I don’t think you could get anything similar in the UK - or at least I didn’t find it. I didn’t continue with it once my skin improved. But then reading Sali’s articles reintroduced me to acids. I need to read the cheat sheets because I don’t really know the difference between actives/ acids and chemical exfoliators. I have a lot to learn!

Apologies for splitting up my posts again but I find it easier using my phone one handed while feeding

Just wanted to say this set of threads is brilliant. It’s such an eye opener and I wish I’d discovered you earlier! And thank you to botemp for your helpful, detailed explanations - and patience with a newbie!

Caffeine is a good contractor in the temporary but it's mainly good for depuffing but the constricting of the skin does mean you can see a (temporary) improvement in dark circles. For dark circles I'd look for something with caffeine and vitamin c in but more emphasis on the vit C. A lot of the Vit C eye creams also contain retinol, unfortunately for you, but they're a good pairing for under eye issues. The only one I can think of right now that ticks all the boxes for you is scarily expensive for the amount and I don't think SpaceNK carries the brand, it's the Skinceuticals AOX eye gel.

Men and good skin is because of several factors, one is socialisation, men aren't punished for ageing so they're spared the scramble of trying to prevent but inadvertently inviting in premature ageing through product abuse. The other is the regular shaving, it's a form of exfoliation. They do tend to have slightly thicker skin so the loss of collagen with age isn't so apparent and they can get away with doing very little before skin looks 'bad' as we just don't hold men to porcelain skin standards (well not here anyhow, in South Korea it's an equal opportunity sport). But the huge differentiation is hormones, we deal with fluctuations on a monthly basis and it has a massive impact on our skin and that's even before considering birth control, pregnancies and (peri-)menopause. Modern diets just aren't designed for women, from portion size to nutritional balance and things like consumption of sweets (sugar is shit for the skin) being gendered and ultimately these things show in skin. Adult acne is on the rise, overwhelmingly in women and it'll be new to them, not a continuation of teenage acne. The adult men who seem to suffer from it usually have issue balancing out the female hormones in their system. I don't know if it's BC in the water, suspected endocrine disruptors in cosmetics, food, plastics, etc. but there definitely seems to be a number of factors of modern life that are disruptive to the female (and some male) endocrine system.

Oxybenzone is the big one to avoid in chemical SPFs when breastfeeding, the others are more of a theoretical risk if you ingest enough of them over an impossibly long period of time, etc. but oxybenzone is one that you wouldn't apply to a child for sun protection either so a simple one to avoid. The Frezyderm Velvet face SPF 50 is a firm chemical UV favourite on here although you may panic about sauna face when first applying it, but it becomes completely undetectable in seconds.

@botemp thanks for the thorough low down on dye cream ingredients and suitability for me. I think I will give eye cream a miss until my new routine is established. I’ll just use the (non-actives) moisturisers I have.

Brilliant advice on the SPFs! I’ve read both of your cheat sheets on this topic - and you’ve convinced me. Is the tinted version of Frezyderm ok ... or do the observation that makeup doesn’t contain enough SPF still apply? Should I order the original version. I’ve read reviews and it sounds like an excellent product.

My diet is the next thing I need to tackle (I have a long list). I have definitely been eating too much sugar, mainly because I’m so tired!

I’ve just read the basics cheat sheet. First line was about not washing your face in hot shower water which is what I do daily. And I’ve written that on here - you all have the patience of saints!!

You're dealing with a needy flapping penguin 24/7 so you get a pass on the in shower cleansing. I also would point out if you're washing your hair daily and putting your face under the showerhead washing your face at the sink doesn't really change the situation much, if you can just lower the temp slightly that's a better improvement. Doesn't need to be tepid in the shower but anything that warrants as hot is less than ideal for facial skin.

I've used the colour version in the summer and it's very nice but the colour is on the more medium warm toned side and it's a touch dark for me. It's not really a makeup product, it gives a tint, a slight amount of coverage but really not a lot.

Would any of you be interested in buying my nars tm in shade Alaska? Used it twice but Alaska definitely isn't the right shade for me.....

Hi all!

Has anyone tried the Marula oil from TO? I'm needing a new oil and although I know the DE one is good (tried a sample), was wondering if I could get away with a cheapie version :)

BlueSky I've used both clear and tinted Frezyderm and they're my favourite for summer use. They've worked really well at festivals, which is my yardstick for effective SPFs :)

Also have a question re. foundations: I use GA Luminous Silk as my evening base but I've noticed in recent photos it's not lasting that well as the night goes on... I tried MAC Studio Fix which was surprisingly nice for my dry skin and not as heavy/claggy (!) as I was expecting - does anyone else have any other long-wearing, out-out foundations they can recommend? Thanks!

I use and like frezyderm both tinted and clear and really like both but some here found it irritated their eyes. I’m medium skin tone and the tinted is a good shade for me, I do find I have to apply in layers though to use the recommended amount, if I slap too much on at once it can go clumpy.

Mint that shade would be too pale for me, I’m in st moritz (wish I was really there )

Ts the only marula oil I used was from Tarte (came in a set) and it gave me spots so not tried any others. I liked the rosehip oil from TO but stopped buying during the deciem debacle and my skin isn’t any the worse for not using it.

I haven’t used longwear foundations for ages as they all seem to go claggy on me, for ‘out out’ I use NARS TM, hourglass veil and ambient lighting powders, then finish with urban decay setting spray.

IT cosmetics CC cream can be built up to full coverage and I found it lasted very well, I prefer NARS TM or bare minerals complexion rescue now though as they both have better shade matches for me in their ranges.