Ok really - how bad is sleep training?

[Chocolatepudding85]

I have avoided it so far as I've read studies showing that cry-it-out babies still feel the same level of stress hormone when they're in their cot and not crying, they just stop expressing it (after they've been successfully sleep trained).

But I'm so tired I'm losing the plot!

Toddler DC up all night because of potty training and accidents (Won't go back to a nappy at all).

Baby DC (not far off age one) up all night feeding. Both awake at 5am every morning.

It's baby DC that I'd sleep train, obviously. Not the toddler!

I don't think baby DC needs to feed three times a night (7pm feed at bedtime, 10pm feed, then 2am feed, then 4am feed and up at 5am with no feed as he's full up from the night , and breakfast at 7).

What do I do? Is sleep training really that bad?!?! I mean, I know so many people who've done it and they have perfectly happy, secure kids.

Are these studies just giving us something else to feel guilty about?

Baby Dc only ever naps in the buggy, too.

I am using the terms "self-settling" and "independent settling" interchangeably. The baby will still need comfort (even Sarah Ockwell-Smith's opponents will agree with this) but the idea is that the baby can learn to get it without parents help. My DD, for instance, is using a version of self-rocking movement she picked up when I was shushing and patting her starting from 8 weeks. Other early sleep training techniques have got exactly the same aim - let the baby find an independent solution that works for them.

Very easy to copy and paste things from the internet @riddles26. I can do it too and this is one of the many articles I've read on baby cycles being 45 mins - sarahockwell-smith.com/2016/10/20/why-your-baby-will-never-sleep-through-the-night/ - I imagine you've finally left the thread now though.

@wintertravel1980 I'm sure she doesn't appreciate the 'lucky you' but she has been uncivil constantly throughout this thread so people are obviously going to bite back x

HT85 - the thing is Sarah Ockwell-Smith is a strong and outspoken proponent of attachment (or "gentle") parenting so all her articles will be inevitably biased. It is a bit like referring to Richard Ferber (CC advocate) - you can consider their views but you might not want to rely on them 100%.

By the way, I do agree 45 minutes sleep cycles are normal - but there are other statements made by SOS that I would dispute. The most obvious one is that you just have to wait until your child learns to self-settle. There are things you can do (if you want to) to help babies learn.

I've never met a mum who regrets sleep training but know plenty who have school age kids that still take ages to settle in the evening or co sleep and these parents admit they should have tackled it earlier
I had really difficult sleepers (all BF) for the first 9 months and once I sleep trained they've been beautiful sleepers
I'd start tackling bedtime and build up to the full night my hv advised with my youngest and hardest sleeper to have a time which I wouldn't feed before in the night and gradually increase . I also had to go from pretty much co sleeping with him to getting him to sleep through in a cot age 1. It was so much easier than I thought
Go for it and like most things with parenting go with your instincts and not others who are defensive of their choices

Wow, what a long thread!

@HT85, I think if you reread the thread, you will find riddles is actually the most supportive and non-judgemental towards all types of parenting and her style isn't that different to yours - she still breastfeeds and deals with night feeds like you do. You may feel she has been uncivil towards you but your comments are highly insulting to those such as blondefancy who were driven to sleep training for a valid reason. Its about time someone stood up for them too!

Reading this thread supports my theory that attachment parents feel they are a better parent for their methods and this is certainly the case for Sarah Ockwell-Smith and all of her followers. Its horrible how they imply that anyone who parents differently is harming their baby.

Its horrible how they imply that anyone who parents differently is harming their baby.

Unless we are able to access other space-time dimensions nobody can see the results of the alternative routes, so nobody can know whether they are harming their child in the longer term or not.

Exactly @TittyGolightly and this is where I think riddles makes a brilliant point as we will also never know the true impact of any form of sleep deprivation on babies who have woken regularly through the night over many months because their parents don't want them to cry. Both sides can argue the harm point to justify their parenting

I agree with her that we shouldn't judge each other for our choices as we all are doing what we believe is best

@addictedtochoc, this "nobody can judge anyone for any of their choices" narrative just shuts down debate. Of course we can all have an opinion on (i.e. judge) different methods of parenting, as certain styles a) Fit our values better or b) May have been proven to be better or worse at achieving specific things. What we can do, though, is try not to judge the intentions of individuals who are obviously all trying to do their best and love their babies dearly.

I've tried to make this point through this thread but the defensiveness levels are high. HT85 has not insulted blondefancy personally. If she feels insulted because others feel CC sleep training is is inappropriate, that can't be helped. Regardless of the reasons, 3 months is too young for controlled crying if we are to listen to the opinions of any of the leading infant sleep researchers.

With regard to babies waking frequently over many months..I'm not sure how they can be sleep deprived when they are designed to do this. I agree with nudging poor sleepers towards longer chunks of sleep without needing parental help (for the parents' sake as much as anything), but there are many methods to do this that don't involve leaving babies alone to cry.

Finally, not all those who don't like CIO are attachment parents. I don't like the AP / non-AP divide anyway, as in most cultures, what we know as attachment parenting (extended BF / co-sleeping) is just known as "parenting"!

Unless we are able to access other space-time dimensions nobody can see the results of the alternative routes, so nobody can know whether they are harming their child in the longer term or not

So then why all the hyperbole about people who do things differently?

I have nothing to say to @FATEdestiny as she has had an extremely nasty and personal attack on my choices in the past

Attached is the post you refer to @riddles26, just for information for anyone reading. From here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/2876899-4-month-sleep-advice-please

With hindsight it is harsh, but I stand by it.

Above post was followed by 19 lengthy posts full of practical, useful, helpful (I thought) suggestions that were aimed at helping you.

I get that it was a harsh opening paragraph. It was the only harsh truth in amoungst about 80 paragraphs of practical suggestions (which you seemed to appreciate) I wrote on that thread. Thank you for your time would have been more polite...

@Grayfig that was my interpretation of riddles point all along. I think her defensive tone was because of posters on this board who make parents that use CC feel like criminals who are causing harm that is likened to child neglect for doing so. Having read her posts on other threads, I see she's had a tough time and is very supportive. Im hoping she will come and clarify but I imagine she has left now.

I second what you said about the labelling of parents - the popularity of the term 'gentle parenting' has suddenly resulted in parents labelling each other and more arguments as a consequence.

I third the suggestion that labelling parents is just pitching mums against other mums.

"For parents, by parents" is what the Mumsnet logo says. This thread doesn't feel in that spirit at all.

This nastiness is making the sleep board not a very nice space recently. I know I've felt less inclined to post. I hope that wasn't anyone's aim? I hope no-one stops trying to help other mums.

(I know that sounds twee. Sorry, I'm not normally that soppy, just trying to lighten the tone)

Thanks for the support addicted. I don't have the energy to keep repeating my point when it's clearly going unheard.

In response to Fates post, I have attached the actual nasty attack she had on me where she made her own interpretation of my parenting. And the response from a couple of others who agreed she was exceptionally nasty.

And just to clarify for the one she attached - my 4 month old was NEVER left to cry alone. My OP stated that she was crying because she was overtired and refusing to sleep and the only way she would sleep was after crying whilst I was with her. Typically Fate would attach it so I look as bad as possible - I expect nothing less from her.

I deliberately did not link to that thread riddles26. Because you do not come across well within the context of the thread.

I had actually already linked to and mentioned the thread you quote, then deleted it. I thought it disingenuous and unkind if me to fan the flames further. That would not be in the spirit of parents helping other parents.

For context:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/2927537-nap-strategy-5-week-old

The escalation of bitterness in your posts would concern me, if I was in your position. I would hide this thread of it was me. You are not me though.

There was no escalation of bitterness. That thread shows how you came along with the sole intention of attacking me. You had already given your advice to the OP, I was giving mine and you chose to dispute me and then attack me personally for my choices. You then decided to try bring up my old posts in an attempt to discredit me even though my version of my past actions will always stay the same.

In the post I chose to screenshot, you then made a series of wild assumptions on my parenting style and drew your own conclusions. You did later on admit my sleep training was far gentler than you had initially thought in a completely separate thread but that does not take away from this personal, nasty attack which was totally uncalled for.

I have no doubt that you have helped countless others on Mumsnet but you can be extremely nasty and I know from experience how worthless that makes someone feel. I will never imply someone is a poor parent the way you did to me because I know that everyone is doing their best and their actions are well-intentioned. That is why I have fought so hard on this thread for posters not to cruelly discredit others parenting choices.

...can be extremely nasty and I know from experience how worthless that makes someone feel

It may be prudent to revisit some of the language and tone you have used toward people you disagree with on this thread, with this in mind.

Did you seek to make other people feel just as worthless as you did, for their opinions? Because you've been extremely nasty and personal in your attacks of some posters.

It reflects more on you than it does them.

I am sorry if I made you feel worthless. It has never been by aim.

I may have argued hard to try and get my point across and definitely shouldn't have made the stupid comment but not once have I judged anyone's ability to parent or said that they are harming their child or prioritising themselves over their child - both of which you have said to me amongst other nasty comments. So don't use that to make a connection between your comment and any of mine.

Your apology is meaningless now because your only aim in that thread was to make me feel bad. I had said that we agree to disagree but you kept going and got more and more personal with your attack on me. Yes it made me feel awful, as did the comment you made to me the first time. I will forever wonder if I could have avoided the situation I was in if I had done things differently when she was newborn. I certainly didn't need nastiness and judgement from a stranger on the internet who was so keen to help everyone else.

No matter what anyone says to you, you have to have the last word in a disagreement and you have to be correct. You hide behind not mincing your words but your comments can be nasty and spiteful and just enough to tip a struggling person over the edge.

No matter what anyone says to you, you have to have the last word in a disagreement and you have to be correct. You hide behind not mincing your words but your comments can be nasty and spiteful and just enough to tip a struggling person over the edge

This 1000 times 👏

You had some decent moral high ground in this thread riddles26.

I'm disappointed that the very real point (that being judgmental helps no one) is being lost amungst the unpleasant tone being used. Uncivil was a word used earlier.

It's not needed. The good points are being devalued because of it.

You hide behind not mincing your words but your comments can be nasty and spiteful and just enough to tip a struggling person over the edge

How about we both make a pledge to be less nasty and spiteful on the Mumsnet sleep boards? Would you agree to that riddles26?

If the outcome of this distasteful thread is posters being kinder to each other, that's got to be a good legacy.

I don't want to derail the discussion any further by joining in this particular debate (despite having an opinion on it, as I myself felt attacked on another thread, and it took a lot of self control not to engage) but I will say that if the outcome is for everyone involved to make more effort to avoid being nasty, in both language and tone, that would be great, and I for one would be more inclined to keep joining in discussions like this.

Crossed post with you Timetogrowup2016. Maybe you would like to take the Kindness Pledge too?

I think it's fair to say we are all here to help other mums.

By parents, for parents.

I will agree not to take the moral high ground or call anyone stupid next time but I was not nasty or spiteful in my posts to begin with.

I got carried away in that instance for something I feel very strongly about and that is because I want no other poster to be made to feel like I did. I will however commit to get my point across in a calmer manner next time as we are all here to help each other.

If the outcome of this distasteful thread is posters being kinder to each other, that's got to be a good legacy.
I agree wholeheartedly with this

*Crossed post with you Timetogrowup2016. Maybe you would like to take the Kindness Pledge too?

I think it's fair to say we are all here to help other mums.

By parents, for parents.*

This I agree with yes.

Sorry your thread got de railed op

Oh ffs.
How do I make things bold ?