Ok really - how bad is sleep training?

[Chocolatepudding85]

I have avoided it so far as I've read studies showing that cry-it-out babies still feel the same level of stress hormone when they're in their cot and not crying, they just stop expressing it (after they've been successfully sleep trained).

But I'm so tired I'm losing the plot!

Toddler DC up all night because of potty training and accidents (Won't go back to a nappy at all).

Baby DC (not far off age one) up all night feeding. Both awake at 5am every morning.

It's baby DC that I'd sleep train, obviously. Not the toddler!

I don't think baby DC needs to feed three times a night (7pm feed at bedtime, 10pm feed, then 2am feed, then 4am feed and up at 5am with no feed as he's full up from the night , and breakfast at 7).

What do I do? Is sleep training really that bad?!?! I mean, I know so many people who've done it and they have perfectly happy, secure kids.

Are these studies just giving us something else to feel guilty about?

Baby Dc only ever naps in the buggy, too.

Yes you are massively generalising as all babies are different. My son had no interest whatsoever in co-sleeping - right from the get go he freaked out if he was in bed with us. Must take after me as I also don't like sharing a bed with anyone - if we had a bigger flat I'd certainly have my own room and my own bed.

As someone who grew up in a non-western family, I can tell you that depression and anxiety most certainly exist in other cultures, they just aren't taken seriously.

What do people do with babies that don't want to co sleep though? My son (2) has never wanted to come in bed/have a cuddle.
Also, for people that mentioned others that regretted sleep training. Could people explain how they regretted it? I've only ever met people that talked about the positive benefits.

Titty - I think there are two possible data points you can use to compare parental and baby happiness across multiple countries and cultures.

The first one is the sleep study I referred to earlier on this thread. Western parents are much happier with their babies' sleep than Asian parents.

The second benchmark is the level of suicides per country (which is sometimes used as a proxy for a level of depression and anxiety). Western countries (and particularly UK) actually come out reasonably well:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate (I am referring to 2015 WHO stats).

Looks like people in Western Europe are pretty happy and while, of course, there are always issues with mental health and depression, some "traditional" countries have to deal with much bigger challenges.

I suspect there might be a significant correlation

Why? I'm genuinely interested as to why you would think being left to cry for 2 minutes at a time for a couple of nights in a loving family home at age 11 months could have any baring whatsoever on the mental health of that child for the rest of their life. There would never be a study because 'sleep training' is hard to define, depression and anxiety are multi faceted, complicated conditions and, at least in my opinion, no one would ever seriously think one night of sleep training in an infant would cause them.

Most of the 'expert' opinions on sleep seem to be opinions rather than research based, and a lot of the research is either fairly poor quality or misapplied (most children who have been sleep trained for a short period of time do not have experiences in any way similar to Romanian orphanages who were severely neglected). Besides which I wonder whether the focus on cortisol is really that appropriate. Life without any stress at all would be very boring, and ds at least spent way more time screaming from toddler tantrums than he ever did from going to sleep.

Nooka makes excellent points here. Okwell Smith and the like are giving their opinions - there is practically no science behind them (and the very little that does exist is if extremely poor quality). I have worked with 2 excellent paediatric endocrine consultants in the past - cortisol levels rise and fall over the course of the day. They do not only respond to stress and the outcome of the study measuring cortisol cannot draw any significant conclusions whatsoever.

I am from a non-Western culture and spend significant amounts of time in my native country - I am in complete agreement with Mountainview that depression and anxiety are just as prevalent (if not more) but are a huge stigma and not taken seriously. They are hidden away and people pretend they don't exist.

As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, there is an entire generation of adults in this country out of whom the significant majority will have been sleep trained using CC/CIO - the overwhelming majority of them are well functioning adults without mental health problems. Yes, some will have anxiety/depression in the same way that some people in most generations have the conditions. It is more prevalent now in the Western World because of increased awareness and ability to diagnose. A lot of work has gone into removing the stigma and it being accepted as an illness the same way as a heart condition is.

As a couple of other posters have mentioned, babies also cry for a number of other reasons unrelated to sleep. My daughter despised her car seat (and often pram too) when under 4 months and cried when she was in them. Should I have not left the house for the entire time and subjected myself to PND because she cried each time she was put in them? Should I have also missed her medical appointments and follow ups because she cried when we went to them? Or should I have taken her in them whilst gradually increasing the length of time she was in them and showed her that she was safe, I was there with her and she had to sit in them. I never left her crying on her own with no-one there for comfort but sometimes babies cry and anyone who thinks that all parents should have no tolerance for it is living in their own little fantasy.

Firstly the comparison of happiness between Asian parents and Western parents of their children's sleep - no one has said sleep training isn't easy, or the easier option. People mostly (not always) get the results they want from sleep training, which is their children sleeping independently with no help from the parents. Asian parents who don't sleep train and possibly co sleep etc are probably playing the long game and waiting until their children are developmentally ready to sleep independently (with no help from guardians). Yes it might be hard but for me totally worth it to nurture my child's need for intimacy and security. She is only 6 months and I might still be lying with her when she is 3 to get her to sleep. But it's more important to me for her to feel secure then for me to get my evenings back or get the extra sleep, as it's a short space of time in the grand scheme of things. I appreciate how some people become desperate and sleep deprived I really do. I just believe there are other ways around that - cosleeping isn't for everyone but it is how I manage to get the extra sleep. Going to bed earlier for a while is another way. There are many ways to achieve this. The amount of times I've read about mothers sobbing outside their child's bedroom, we're biologically programmed to respond to our child's cries - there is a reason it feels so wrong. Because it is wrong.

I appreciate how some people become desperate and sleep deprived I really do. I just believe there are other ways around that - cosleeping isn't for everyone
No you don't appreciate how it is for everyone. You absolutely don't in any way at all. You've found a solution that works for you which is fantastic but that solution doesn't work for all - there are people that can't cosleep for medical reasons, not just they don't want to.
I wholeheartedly agree that a parent should avoid leaving a baby to cry alone but I accept that this isn't possible for everyone and we all have to put the needs of our entire family first. I won't say ridiculous things like I'm nurturing my child's need for security as though those who sleep train aren't because they are still caring for their child in the best possible way they can in their circumstances.

But it's more important to me for her to feel secure then for me to get my evenings back or get the extra sleep, as it's a short space of time in the grand scheme of things.

I suggest you have a look at why people tend to turn to sleep training as I can guarantee you it's not for selfish reasons like wanting their evenings back. They are desperate, usually getting practically no sleep themselves and unable to parent their child well. No parent is useful if their child is inadvertently in danger due to the parents sleep deprived state. Likewise it is of benefit to no one if a parent can't earn the income they need to live because they are not sleeping enough. They don't turn to it for selfish reasons like wanting to relax on the sofa in the evening, they are usually desperate. Your judgemental approach based on parenting your one child is disgusting.

I was suicidal from lack of sleep. Better for my child to have a sane mother I would have thought.

HT85 but you are saying that parents who sleep train are doing so at the expense of their children's sense of security and intimacy. I think that sleep training when done well has no more effect on a child's sense of security than potty training, or any other thing we teach or children. Also, whilst I'm glad you're happy with your baby's sleep I know of parents who really aren't happy to sit with their toddlers for an hour plus every night, they are frustrated and sick of it. However they won't sleep train becasue they have been convinced that it will in some way damage their child. A friend of mine hasn't been out in the evening for 4 years, hasn't had more than 3/4 hours sleep in 4 years, it's not just a short time for all parents.

When we sleep trained ds he was waking every 60-90 minutes then needing feeding initially (he would have less than an oz)then rocking for up to half an hour. It was not good for him to be so sleep deprived, it really wasn't just about me getting my evenings back.

No you don't appreciate how it is for everyone. You absolutely don't in any way at all. erm, I do otherwise I wouldn't have said it. I've been so sleep deprived I've nearly passed out from being dizzy. I'm not expecting a blue peter badge, but to say I don't understand it is ridiculous.

This subject always causes tension and passionate views from both sides. I stand by mine and believe there are other ways.

@InDubiousBattle - I didn't say I'm happy with my babies sleep, she woke every 45 minutes last month. This month it's 3-4 times, last night it was one. I think sleep patterns change constantly for babies that's all.

HT85 I don't even disagree with your point of view on how you get your baby to sleep. But you have no understanding or appreciation for parents who's mental health has suffered due to lack of sleep and your comment that they are sleep training at the expense of their child's security or intimacy says it all.

I agree it is an emotive subject and we all have our own - and equally valid - opinions on it. But it would be so much better if people like you didn't judge this who choose to parent differently with absolutely no appreciation for their circumstances or reasons for doing to.

@riddles26 but you misunderstand me. And perhaps that's my fault for not being clear, apologies. I guess I do get a bit worked up on the subject, it is something that makes me feel very uncomfortable. I guess the same sort of animosity would occur between a meat eater and vegan. It can get very heated! I don't disrespect people who sleep train, I simply believe there are other ways around it. As this is an advice forum, there are always going to be differing suggestions. I have suffered with severe insomnia on and off my entire life, i TOTALLY understand and appreciate how sleep deprivation can affect your mental health. And I am not meaning to insinuate parents who sleep train don't care about their child's sense of security, I am just seeing it as I am doing what I feel is right for my child's sense of security.

simply believe there are other ways around it.
@HT85 this is the problem. If you said you believed that gentler approaches should be tried first, I would completely agree.

There are other ways around it for you. There have fortunately been ways around it for me too. But this doesn't apply to everyone and it's very clear from your posts that you judge anyone who does use methods that you wouldn't yourself.

simply believe there are other ways around it. @Ht85 this is the problem - it's not a problem, it's my opinion! We have differing opinions on the subject, my opinion is there are ways around and you think differently!

My dd simply wouldn't settle in bed with me .
She needed her own space and from six months to 18 months has slept through nearly every single night in her own cot .

You want to co sleep fine but the attachment parents need to get of there high horse

@HT85 the more you post, the more you prove my point. You yourself have openly admitted how frequently your daughter wakes up at night right now. You have also admitted you are sleep deprived and know how that feels. So your current solution involves you not sleeping well at all. It works for you so all good for your family.

However, everyone can't cope with that extent of night waking and sleep deprivation in some people can have significant consequences (mental health and employment were my examples but there are lots of others). The gentle methods take a long time to work and some of us are in the fortunate position where this isn't a concern. Others circumstances (NOT just their wishes) mean that this isn't possible and for them, there aren't other options.

I don't get why it is so difficult for you to appreciate something so simple

There are other ways around it. I disagree. When ds was waking every hour or so his sleep was worse in our bed. People with more than one dc or jobs can't always just nap in the day. I think there are few adults for whom a 7pm bedtime is acceptable for years at a time. I think when you have at baby who wants 3 mouthfuls of milk and rocking for 30 minutes every hour or so there aren't any other ways around it. I think the responsible thing to do is sleep train.

@riddles26, your tone is uncivil. It is not "disgusting" to pass judgment on parenting practices that one believes are wrong. Some people have babies that wake every half an hour at night for months. I think it is understandable when these parents use CC. However many people do NOT try gentler methods first, and many people use CC when they are not especially sleep deprived; rather they can't tolerate 2 or 3 night wakings. This is like the whole "fed is best" movement - equally emotive. If we can't pass any judgment on what are in fact better practices (while leaving some wiggle room for certain cases e.g. parents who are truly massively sleep deprived, or women who truly cannot breastfeed), we are intellectually and morally void.

@Grayfig I have pretty much said in every post that I believe gentler methods should be tried first. I have also made it explicitly clear that I believe CC is for the situation you described and I think the judgement is disgusting because it is also aimed at parents in these cases.

Grayfig I not convinced that many parents do cc in response to a couple of night wakings and don't try anything else first. In pretty much every family I've known to do cc it has been in response to multiple night wakings in an older baby and as a last resort.

Actually what I just said is Bollocks, I know several parents who did this but they're all over 50- my parents generation (although I wasn't sleep trained apparently). Many of my generation of parents seem to avoid sleep training if they possibly can because they seem to think it will damage their children. Which of course done properly it won't.

Likewise Indubious, I am yet to meet a parent of young children in both personal or professional capacity who has decided to use sleep training methods like CC or CIO in response to 2-3 night wakings. Those who do use it are almost always absolutely desperate.

I can happily say I can't see myself doing it but I haven't experienced exactly what they have and that's why I don't judge them for doing so. I'll offer my opinion on what I believe is best based on my experience but that's it and that does NOT make me intellectually or morally void. It means I have compassion and empathy for others situations which Grayfig appears to lack

However many people do NOT try gentler methods first, and many people use CC when they are not especially sleep deprived

I've read about 90% of all of the threads posted on the Mumsnet sleep board for the last 3 and a bit years. Posted on in a fair load of those. I think that's many hundreds/thousands of families asking for help with baby sleep.

I can't recall any advise threads that have ended with advice like this. There are often random posters (who find the thread through Active Talk, possibly) who pop in, say I left my babies to cry and it was fine, then leave. But that wouldn't reflect the tone of the whole thread and very few regular sleep board posters would advocate anything like this.

I can think of only 1 regular poster on the sleep board who regularly advocates CC (@LapinR0se). The opinions of this poster are not reflective of the majority.

You are preaching to the converted here.

No-one posting here would suggest CC when there is a gentler alternate or if an sleep expectation adjustment would be better.