Ok really - how bad is sleep training?

[Chocolatepudding85]

I have avoided it so far as I've read studies showing that cry-it-out babies still feel the same level of stress hormone when they're in their cot and not crying, they just stop expressing it (after they've been successfully sleep trained).

But I'm so tired I'm losing the plot!

Toddler DC up all night because of potty training and accidents (Won't go back to a nappy at all).

Baby DC (not far off age one) up all night feeding. Both awake at 5am every morning.

It's baby DC that I'd sleep train, obviously. Not the toddler!

I don't think baby DC needs to feed three times a night (7pm feed at bedtime, 10pm feed, then 2am feed, then 4am feed and up at 5am with no feed as he's full up from the night , and breakfast at 7).

What do I do? Is sleep training really that bad?!?! I mean, I know so many people who've done it and they have perfectly happy, secure kids.

Are these studies just giving us something else to feel guilty about?

Baby Dc only ever naps in the buggy, too.

It's so odd to me how a switch can flip at nighttime when mummies little angels suddenly become the enemy that must be defeated

Oh don't worry, mine is like that all day too

I wasn't actually fussed on mine sleeping through, I just quite fancied an evening without 3 hours of screaming and then being woken every hour to piss about.

If I'd have just waited til he was 2 for that to abate on its own I'd have been suicidal, no joke.

However I did have a child who wouldn't co sleep, nor be fed or rocked to sleep.

I think it's night weaning which is key to better sleep actually, hence why we didn't do it til DS was one.

Grayfig I don't think frequent and persistent night wakings or multiple night feeds are 'normal' over the age of 1 no. They might be common in some people's experience, but they aren't necessary. Many parts of the world bed share with children for a long time, for those that don't yes I think some form of 'sleep training' will have been used to get child sleeping through the night. As Fate says the term sleep training is highly controversial and possibly misleading. It doesn't mean child has been left to cry themselves to sleep. I maintain helping a child to sleep well- and there are many different methods- is in the best interests of the child and the whole family. Not all children will start magically sleeping through the night by themselves when they are accustomed to e.g. being fed every time they wake. I know 3 year olds still waking for night feeds.

@mimiholls that's a parents personal choice. Under 3 it's definitely possible to night wean a child without sleep training. Some come to it naturally way before then for a start.

I would consider night weaning a form of sleep training so it just goes to show everyone is on different pages with what that actually means.

riddles I totally agree and understand the work element. I remember working with a two hour commute on a couple of hours sleep whilst pregnant. It's horrific. That's why I suggested help from the partner to get through it. I don't aim to make people feel bad about wanting sleep at all, more just to manage expectations and to lessen pressure. But yes sleep deprivation is a killer!

I do think there is an obsession with 12 hour thing from my experience in real life. I agree five hours solid is more realistic and ideal!

OP, I hope this is all helping!!!

@AnnaT45 the comment about work wasn't aimed at you, more those who condemn any parent who even considers sleep training without any consideration for their circumstances.

I didn't sleep train my DS as I always went in to him, but he was having two feeds a night at 20 months and I just wanted him to stop that (he would refuse breakfast because of them) so I just stopped offering milk and offered water while I held him and cuddled. After a few nights of outrage he stopped waking up. So it seems he didn't give a crap about having the comforting arms of his mother, he just wanted the milk! So maybe see if just stopping feeding but still going in for cuddles but gently say "no milk in the night sweetie" etc. I offered water but he never wanted it and even now never asks for a drink overnight.

I find riddles26 makes a lot of good points. Yes there is a UK obsession about babies sleeping through but it's not helpful to point to other countries where sleep training is uncommon, as cultures and lifestyles are very different.

In the U.K many mothers return to work when their child is 6-12 months old, often working long hours with a commute and often without any family nearby who can assist with childcare. Clearly those parents are more likely to turn to sleep training than in countries where mothers stay at home and/or where a child is cared for by the wider family.

I doubt parents would consider sleep training just because a child is occasionally waking once or twice in the night - that's par for the course at a young age. Rather they are starting to get desperate because it's taking hours to settle a child and/or the child is waking numerous times.

For the record I take the view that gentle sleep training is the way forward, a middle road if you will between CC and Ockwell Smith's view that you should BF through the night for years on end if your baby so wishes. So baby learns to fall asleep in his bed with his parents being there to reassure him when he needs it.

I always personally felt that teaching my dd to sleep was like teaching her any other skill, I also know that to be the best mother I can be means I need some sleep as well!!

I found that a bedtime routine and offering only water during the night (from 10 months) worked for us. Dd is now a great big 11yo and I don't appear to have broken her and she still sleeps well!!

Thanks @chloechloe The last few months have been a steep learning curve for me but I feel like I finally found some middle ground and am in a good enough place with sleep.

I completely agree with you on gentle sleep training. I don't like either extreme but feel we can take positives from both and use to form a happy medium where babies sleep consistently but feel supported

Personally, sleep training is a big no for me for the reasons you describe in your OP. I just could not leave my baby to cry for me. It felt wrong. IMO, babies just do not understand why they have Mummy who meets their every need in the daytime, cuddles and kisses them, then at nighttime refuses to pick them up, speak to them or closes the door on them.

DD was a terrible sleeper for her first 11 months. Rarely napped as a newborn, when she did get older and napped she would only nap on me, and she was cuddled to sleep every single nap and bedtime. She's my first baby and I'm a SAHM so I could accommodate that. I won't lie though, it was tough and could be isolating (memories of spending 3 hours a day sat on the sofa with a sleeping baby on me!)

But, one day at around 10/11 months I was doing my usual cuddle to sleep thing and she just wouldn't have it. Kicked off like mad. So I tried putting her down and she rolled over and went to sleep. I changed nothing, and I truly believe it was because developmentally, she was ready to self settle and say 'get lost mama I can do this myself now'. She's 16.5 months now, and a beautiful sleeper. 2 naps a day and sleeps through 6-6. She occasionally wakes in the night but it's rare, and brief. Quick cuddle and she's back off to sleep.

Saying all this, I do understand how desperate (and potentially dangerous) it is to be properly sleep deprived. I don't know what the answer is. It's really bloody hard and I try not to judge those who do it. You have to do what works for your own family, you are the parent so really, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. All parents no matter how experienced are only experts in their own children, not yours.

I still wouldn't do it though, to my own children. It doesn't always work long term (so many people say 'you have to reset when teething' etc). I know of several people who have even paid sleep consultants to come in and do versions of CIO whose babies are all the same age as DD. It worked, briefly. Now they are all toddlers they are having ructions at bedtime and through the night. Maybe coincidence, maybe not.

That Sarah Ockwell Smith link previously posted is the one thing I agree with her on. Generally I find her and her 'Gentle Parenting' crowd a sanctimonious bunch who love pointing out the error of other parents ways. It would be much better for their 'cause' if they were supporting other parents and trying to help rather than berating them (which they do constantly judging by their Facebook page which I am an ex-member of).

I found this article (and the rest of the website) very interesting;

evolutionaryparenting.com/controlled-crying-cortisol-and-attachment-a-critical-look/

The article talks about a study which has been reported as supporting controlled crying. However, as the article points out, although parents reported longer sleep durations after controlled crying, measurement of the babies' movements showed that sleep actually wasn't any better and was actually worse 3 months later than groups that had done nothing. However, the technique called bedtime fading seemed to improve sleep much better than controlled crying while not being stressful for the babies.

I would also say that frequent waking doesn't necessarily mean that a child will be tired - it's perfectly possible for a child to wake after every sleep cycle and, if they're soothed back to sleep quickly, get a good night's sleep - unless they're waking frequently in a way that disrupts their sleep cycles they'll be fine. (Of course the adult tending to them, having longer sleep cycles that aren't synchronised, can be absolutely exhausted.) Some children may be in need of more sleep than they're getting but mine clearly wasn't - and I think that not comforting him would have led to him being awake longer and thus being less rested.

From what I've heard it seems that sleep training is a bit of a lottery - some people find it fixes the problems, others that it makes them worse. (I did read somewhere that controlled crying is only about 40% successful - but the people for whom it didn't work tend to stay quiet because they feel that they failed.) Some believe there are absolutely no long term problems, others do. I think so much depends on your child - some may fuss but then settle, some may become more and more hysterical and distressed. But you don't know until you've tried it and for me, confident that my son wasn't overtired, I felt it wasn't worth the risk. Instead I did some gentle nudging towards more independent sleep and took steps myself (early nights and sleeping in shifts) to deal with the impact it had on me. DS still doesn't sleep through all that often but his sleep is worlds better than even 6 months ago, and I have every confidence that in time he will be sleeping through more regularly.

I do deeply sympathise with the feeling of exhaustion though! By the sound of it your eldest's sleep disruption could well be temporary, so is there scope to stick it out a bit longer (perhaps sleeping in shifts or having early nights) to get through that? Then if you're still struggling you could maybe start with gradual night weaning (Jay Gordon's method is what we used) to see if that helps.

UnaOfStormhold - it is indeed an interesting link but it only covers one relatively small study on sleep training. There are others (which analysed larger samples) that seem to indicate control crying does not have negative impact on babies, parents or their relationship. Here is a couple of examples:

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/250049.php?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Medical_News_Today_TrendMD_0
www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/254542.php

The research performed by Marsha Weinraub is particularly interesting since it covered parents of 1,200 babies.

I agree all these conclusions might be challenged and debated (no research is ever perfect) but one particular issue highlighted by earlier studies and constantly brought up by proponents of attachment parenting (around elevated levels of cortisol when children are being "sleep trained") does not appear to have long / medium term consequences.

A different study I have personally found interesting analyses sleep issues across multiple cultures:

www.sleep-journal.com/article/S1389-9457%2811%2900087-6/abstract

Proponents of attachment parenting often compare Western parenting practices to other cultures and continuously iterate the fact that parents in other countries seem to be very happy to follow "traditional society norms" and provide comfort to the baby until he/she eventually learns to sleep on his/her own. The study below shows it is absolutely not the case:

"The results indicated that, in comparison to parents from predominantly Caucasian (PC) countries, parents from predominantly Asian (PA) countries were significantly more likely to identify a sleep problem in their children (26% vs 52% overall; 2% vs 17% “severe” sleep problem)." (from the link above)

It appears Asian parents are nowhere as happy as Western parents and believe their children have got sleep (or severe sleep) problems.

I agree, as does the article, that it's difficult to draw conclusions from such a small study - but I think both the gradual fading and the difference between parental reporting and objective measures of sleep are interesting angles that should be explored in more detail. I'm familiar with the first study you mention and I think (may have mixed it up with another) there are real weaknesses, in particular that the difference between the control group and the intervention group was basically that the latter had been talked to about sleep training by the experimenters and the former hadn't - they didn't follow up on who had done what. So it's not surprising that they didn't find any significant differences!

This thread is actually really great. Open discussion and quite respectful. The one things the vast majority of us agree on is that the gentlest possible method is best. In addition I think we should all clarify better what we are talking about, as I don't think sleep training with a parent present throughout is likely to be harmful. Technically I'm doing that myself with Pantley methods. I'm not a proponent of the idea that babies should never ever cry.

What I get really angry about is what I suppose is the extremes (but still common) - e.g. In the US, paediatricians advising parents to use extinction on babies under 6 months (and that they don't need night feeds), or in the U.K. health visitors telling parents that CC is well researched and safe (we certainly do not know this and for babies with some temperaments it may be highly distressing).

In addition I think we should all clarify better what we are talking about

Indeed. The phrase "Sleep training" is akin to "sleeping through" and "self settling". So steeped in emotive language and such huge variety in meanings that they are becoming pointless phrases.

For comparison, I'm all for what I'd call independant sleeping (and others would call sleep training) from newborn. Sleep training a newborn

However I am a proponent of the idea that babies should never, ever cry. With my own children I aim for no crying, ever, under any circumstances I have any possibility of avoiding.

Yet I am an unashamed fan of routine, structure, early night weaning, independant sleep and independant settling. AKA sleep training to many.

If I didn't understand the process better I'd think it an oxymoron: no crying sleep training. Another oxymoron I could use would be independant attachment parenting.

This assumption you are one or the other - you either gentle/attachment parent or you sleep train - that's the assumption I hate. It's unhelpful and does not support mothers who seek help with their baby's sleep (like the op)

FATE - I am pretty sure you have advised that CC is an option for some posters. Correct me if I'm wrong though. I stand in judgment not of individuals, as I know the despair of severe sleep deprivation. Frankly I don't know how I have found the reserves to continue. Saying that, I do think everyone could try gentler methods followed by paranetal presence methods first.
As I mentioned, what I find appalling is the poorly substantiated advice of health bodies to vulnerable sleep deprived parents.

I advise all kinds of development stage appropriate sleep training, many of which I would never use myself. You'll note the quote: With my own children...

Whilst I have my own preferences and parenting style that will of course influence the advice I give, I don't not help people who parent in a different way to me. That is not in the spirit of a help and advice forum.

So you'll see me:

● advising that CC is an option for some posters.
(Very rarely but im sure it's happened for appropriate cases. I'd challenge you to find more than 5 occassions I've suggested it. I bet it's only once or twice)

● advising that cosleeping is an option for some posters.
(Even though I would never do this, is not my parenting style or choice)

● advising feeding to sleep is an option for some posters
(even though it's not my preference and I'd never do it. Advice usually given with a caveat)

● advising that in-cot settling without a dummy so involving some crying is an option for some posters
(even though i would never do this, so central to my parenting is the dummy. Advice usually offered with a crying tolerance caveat)

● advising adjusting to realistic expectations is an option for some posters

● and a million other things that I hope are useful and not judgmental to parents who seek to improve their child's sleep

My purpose here Grayfig, is to offer advice. There are posters here who only offer support that matches their own parenting methods, and that's fine and necessary. I offer only lots of different parenting styles, even if I have only 1 parenting style myself.

"I stand in judgment not of individuals...", you say. I think you're being judgemental of anyone who does not parent like you. That is standing in judgment.

We're both very much on the same page with gentle, child led, funnelling, parenting. We are both very much on the same page regarding anything that leaves young (

Fate I was not trying to catch you out, just querying whether or not you advised cry methods of sleep training. In response to your earlier post, the second year means age 1-2 (not over 2), during which it is certainly normal for toddlers to experience night waking. Reading back through my posts, I never denounced individual parents using certain methods, I said I sympathised with sleep deprived mothers. But yes, I do not like parental absence methods of training and believe gentler methods are preferable.

I'd love to see a study which analyses teens and adults diagnosed with depression/anxiety and sleep training. I suspect there might be a significant correlation.

Well I have both depression and anxiety titty, and I was attachment parented and most certainly not sleep trained, so maybe let's not make sweeping generalisations eh?

I really feel for the OP, not sure how she functions at all with so little sleep over such a long time (assuming her children have never slept well). My children are teenagers now and still to a large extent have the same sleep patterns as when they were tiny. ds sleeps pretty well and dd sleeps very poorly.

We used controlled crying techniques (the standard leaving for a few minutes, shushing and leaving again for I think three days) with him very successfully and he self soothed with his thumb after that. He wasn't keen on being rocked or fed to sleep and never cried long so it wasn't very hard. We tried the same approach with dd and discovered she was a bit of a marathon crier so gave up very quickly. She required jiggling for hours instead. Which was painful for us but she did eventually learn to go to sleep on her own, if not easily.

We were quite fierce about staying in bed once they were toddlers too. Not nasty, just firm about nighttime being for sleeping. I can't say I have any regrets about that. Most of the 'expert' opinions on sleep seem to be opinions rather than research based, and a lot of the research is either fairly poor quality or misapplied (most children who have been sleep trained for a short period of time do not have experiences in any way similar to Romanian orphanages who were severely neglected). Besides which I wonder whether the focus on cortisol is really that appropriate. Life without any stress at all would be very boring, and ds at least spent way more time screaming from toddler tantrums than he ever did from going to sleep.

I didn't make a sweeping generalisation. I said I'd like to see a study.

Your one example doesn't really prove the rule, does it? Why is depression and anxiety on the risen the West where sleep training is normal/encouraged? Could it really be that what happens as a baby - when all those neural connections are being made - has no impact? We know it does in cases of severe neglect. What about milder stuff, like babies having to learn to self soothe because their parents say so? Or being forced to sleep independently whilst their adult parents have the comfort of sleeping together because society values "independence" in babies asap?

There are obviously lots of variables, but id be interested in a study into it.