Ok really - how bad is sleep training?

[Chocolatepudding85]

I have avoided it so far as I've read studies showing that cry-it-out babies still feel the same level of stress hormone when they're in their cot and not crying, they just stop expressing it (after they've been successfully sleep trained).

But I'm so tired I'm losing the plot!

Toddler DC up all night because of potty training and accidents (Won't go back to a nappy at all).

Baby DC (not far off age one) up all night feeding. Both awake at 5am every morning.

It's baby DC that I'd sleep train, obviously. Not the toddler!

I don't think baby DC needs to feed three times a night (7pm feed at bedtime, 10pm feed, then 2am feed, then 4am feed and up at 5am with no feed as he's full up from the night , and breakfast at 7).

What do I do? Is sleep training really that bad?!?! I mean, I know so many people who've done it and they have perfectly happy, secure kids.

Are these studies just giving us something else to feel guilty about?

Baby Dc only ever naps in the buggy, too.

Owlet and April - sometimes something needs to be done for sanity and your methods would be much preferable in my mind to CC/CIO (apparently babies with a caregiver - even if crying hard - do not release the high levels of cortisol of a baby who is not responded to).

I'm doing this tonight with a one year old. My DH is up there going in every couple of minutes to reassure him/back patting. Baby wakes every 2 hours and wants to breastfeed. I work FT, have two other kids to get up and out to school by 7am every morning and I just can't do it anymore. Co-sleeping is a strategy that only works if you can actually get some sleep, nobody in my house is getting much and its killing us. I hate to do it, but I did it with the other 2 around the same age and within a couple of nights they were sleeping through and well rested in the morning.

Chocolate I feel you. My baby has just turned one. She is still feeding two/ three/ four times at night. She eats loads in the day (more than my two year old) so it's not that. People say they don't need milk at this age and should be sleeping through but I don't know. They're still so little.

Is baby purely waking for milk? I've tried to stop it and let mine cry but it's not worked as essentially she's still hungry. Can you maybe do it so you sleep till a point and your partner does it? Then swap?

Also I'm hugely sensitive as my kids aren't sleepers but it really pisses me off when people say lack of sleep affects their development. Like parents who have kids that don't sleep need more reasons to feel bad about it!!!

Sleep training is magic!

We did the method where you put them down, leave the room, come back in five mins and say your mantra (like "time for sleep, mummy's just outside"). Repeat every 5 mins. Took around 3 nights (40 mins the first night, then 20, then 15).

Needed to restart it a few times in the following months if the baby was teething/ill.

I did gradual withdrawal, not bad at all. No crying.

They still wake freqeuently, they just don't cry out to you anymore as they know there's no point.

Sorry but this is bollocks. DS was sleep trained. He sleeps through 99% of the time now but he most certainly does cry out for me on the odd occasion he wakes up. Tuesday he was up every few hours as was teething. Lots of cuddles and attention from me. Last night straight back to sleeping through.

I night weaned my 11 month old, so we cuddled her but gave no milk. This worked well for us and after 3 nights she started sleeping through 4/5 nights a week and waking once the other times. She was really upset night 1, awake lots but calm nights 2 and 3.

There are far more studies (which are significantly more robust than the one you have mentioned) assessing the damage of long term sleep deprivation to infants and children.

^agree with this.

It is kind to help enable a child to get a good night's sleep, and it is important for your family as a whole. A 1 year old most definitely doesn't need up to 4 feeds a night. In my experience, sleep training is not that bad and most people wonder why they didn't do it sooner if they have waited quite a long time. For us it was one night of upset and sleeping through the night every night since. Happier child, happier parents.

Sleep training was the best thing I did. I did it in little steps not leaving my child to cry for 20 mins on there own etc. I waited till my son was tired then put him down put music on and left the room, baby cried for a minute, after a minute go back in comfort baby put music on and leave the room, and keep doing this leaving an extra minute each Time, after about the tenth time.my son got it and from the second night slept through. He is the best sleeper I know. And in my opinion its better to teach a child how to go to sleep then having a sleep deprived child. Good luck with the sleep training.

One thing I would add is IF you are going in to a hysterical child while sleep training (I don't let a child be totally hysterical) you don't go in to soothe them. You go in for a stern word. Even with my 1 yr old I would be stomping in there saying 'right, that's quite enough, it's sleep time'. And then out. They get a clear message then and I find it usually enraged them momentarily but then they stop and sleep (because now they know nice mummy is not coming next time), very different to going in and cuddling or soothing them which is confusing and gives them the power to keep going with their messing.

@KarateKitten sleep training is hard enough for babies I cannot understand why you would be 'stern' with them to top it off instead of comfort. Seems very cruel.

Oh and my 1, 2 and 4yr old are all excellent sleepers from 9 months when I put my foot down and stopped letting them dictate sleeping. Some crying was usually involved at some point but bedtimes need boundaries like everything else.

karate we went in and soothed and sleep training still worked for us.

All babies are different. As are all parents.

HT, a 1 yr old needs some sternness. It's communication! And like I said, for me it's more important to avoid confusion. Do you not use a stern voice with a 1 yr old when they are about to touch something they shouldn't? Babies are not such delicate little flowers.

I cannot understand why you would be 'stern' with them

Once you have a baby repeatedly standing up and refusing to lie down, it sometimes does require some sturnness. Children don't usually sleep very well standing up.

For me, that sturnness would involve repeatedly lying back down and having zero tolerance on anything but lying down, rather than leaving baby unattended. But it is still sturnness, which is absolutely necessary when parenting a toddler.

I 100% agree with Grayfig's first response on here. It is tiring to have a baby wake a lot, and feed a lot through the night, I know, I've done my years and am still in thick of it with youngest now. Wouldn't do any different though. As for 'sterness' and 'nice mummy not coming back', I think this is shocking, sorry. I'm not even gonna start.

Of the children I know who were sleep trained: one friend went in one morning to find baby, cot, walls etc all covered in vomit and couldn't understand why baby hadn't cried out for them whilst being ill in night, and various others were seemingly fine until slightly older when they started with lots of issues re actually going to bed. I think it's a harsh short term solution at best. They absolutely do get there on their own, I promise

@KarateKitten a one year old would NOT understand why mummy is nice all day and cuddly and then suddenly punishing them at night time. Children are human beings and deserve to be treated as such. I don't speak to my husband like that so I won't be speaking to my kids like that. It's so odd to me how a switch can flip at nighttime when mummies little angels suddenly become the enemy that must be defeated

@Grayfig. Yes we used PUPD. I think you are the only person who is able to judge whether it is appropriate for your child or not. I can say with absolute certainty that I wouldn't have even approached it if my baby would have fed to sleep or if co-sleeping had worked out for us (or if there was pretty much any other way of getting her to go to sleep) but unfortunately it didn't.

From my perspective, there is clear robust data which shows the effect of sleep deprivation on children's development. It is well documented sleep is required for brain development and children's brains grow the most in the first 2 years, making sleep vital. In older generations, every baby would have been sleep trained and the overwhelming majority are all well functioning adults. Every baby that spends a significant amount of time in hospital (be it NICU or paed ward) is sleep trained too so I came to the conclusion that the benefits of getting her sleeping significantly outweighed any possible risk. I don't judge anyone for thinking otherwise - their child, their choice. I particularly can understand why any parent with anxiety or family mental health issues may be cautious and not take my approach. In our case, my daughter became a much happier baby once she was getting regular, good quality sleep and so it was the right choice for our family.

Get off I agree. I know people who sleep trained and are now having big issues with their two year olds. Meanwhile my two year old has finally started sleeping beautifully! I read somewhere that if you don't allow your child to do it at their own pace they will regress eventually.

I don't know though all kids are different. I don't agree that at 12 months they don't need night feeds. All babies are totally different. It's like saying there is no reason they shouldn't be walking at 12 months because lots can. Well there is as they are all different.

I also feel there is a huge obsession in the UK with getting babies to sleep for 12 hours from a young age when in fact often they're not built for that. I find that pressure made me so stressed with my first that but with my second I just go with the flow. On my deathbed I won't regret letting my baby have milk or cuddles in the night for her first years but appreciate we are all different!

@mimiholls, if babies required sleep training, as is very commonly thought by parents in the UK / US, babies would be sleep trained throughout the world. But they aren't. And it isn't as if you're talking about the odd extreme, where the odd child really is sleep deprived to harmful levels. I would estimate more than 50% of UK parents think their child needs sleep training! If all their babies are waking frequently in the first and often second year of life, what does that tell you? It's normal.

I also feel there is a huge obsession in the UK with getting babies to sleep for 12 hours from a young age when in fact often they're not built for that.

Whilst everyone constantly talks about sleeping through, my personal experience plus reading this board shows most people considering sleep training are not trying to achieve the magical 12 hours - more so their babies are not sleeping more than 2-4 hour stretches when they are developmentally at the stage where they can sleep longer than that.

Ive sleep trained and my daughter still feeds in the night. I have no problem with this and am happy to keep feeding as long as she needs it. I sleep trained because she refused to nap at all and was waking and refusing to settle every 1-2 hours at night. She was averaging less than 9 hours in 24 at a time she should have been sleeping 14-16 in 24. I know the sounds of her cries and comfort her immediately if she is distressed. Sometimes she makes noise that is her settling herself - I recognise this sound and let her try before interfering.

When babies are over 12 months and the parent is going back to work, the needs of the parent have to be considered too. Some can survive on little sleep or can work flexibly but others have jobs that involve life or death decisions or intense concentration. They need to sleep too. Every parent accepts they won't be getting the sleep they got pre-baby back but in these professions, some need an unbroken stretch of 5-6 hours (illness aside) in order to perform at work. They need to work to support their family so children do need to fit in. I am extremely fortunate that I am not in this situation but there seems to be absolutely no support or appreciation that life is like that for some and the judgement towards them is disgusting.

It depends totally on the child and the method.

We tried cc and it backfired totally because ds had separation anxiety really badly. If a child was just waking to play or out of habit then yes it may well work.

Ask WHY they wake and go from there. What do they get at 5am?

So for that I'd do a big bedtime snack of something slow burn. I'd tell them that when they wake up at 5 then papa is going to come in with water. Then papa gives water and cuddle in the dullest most boring way possible. So they aren't scared or alone, but they may be cross. But that's ok. Cross crying isn't harmful.

Do that for a week and see what happens.

Sorry Chocolatepudding85, it looks like you've lot this thread to the usual defensive undertones that baby sleep evokes.

If you're looking for some more productive advise I'd suggest starting a new thread without mentioning "sleep training". It brings out the worse in many, on both sides of the argument.

If all their babies are waking frequently in the first and often second year of life, what does that tell you? It's normal.

A very small minority of the babies I have known are still waking regularly in the night past 12 months. I'd estimate at around 5%. Even tinier percent at past 18 months. Not because they were "sleep trained" (which has such a variety of definition it is a useless phrase), just because that's normal.

Normal in the first 3 month? Ridiculous to assume otherwise
Normal in the first 6 months? Certainly a majority.
Normal in the first 12 months? Yes, still normal to expect some night wakes
Normal after 12 months? No, not normal. A minority.
Normal into the second year? No

What is normal is for an attachment parented baby who's mother is the sole source of comfort to still be waking frequently into the second year. And there is nothing wrong with attachment parenting. Just as there is nothing wrong with other parenting ethos' as long as babys needs are put at the centre of decisions. Attachment parenting is not the only answer to doing that. It's one answer amount many.

Gosh I feel like I've opened a can of worms! Am reading through it all with interest. Sorry to have started something controversial!

We sleep trained ds and it wasn't so bad at all, one long ish night really. I started with naps as I found I had more energy during the day. I did a shortened version of bedtime routine, put him in his cot with his dummy and teddy and patted his bum/stroked his back until he went to sleep. I gradually over a couple of weeks started to leave before he was fully asleep until he could go to bed awake and fall asleep himself. Then we night weaned, he was having decent meals at this point so didn't need to feed in the night. This involved offering water instead of milk and lots more shush/patting/rocking. Then we did a version of cc for night wakings. First night he cried on and off for 1.5 hours ish but it was never hysterical crying and he wasn't alone, I slept in his room but no milk or rocking, no lifting him out of his cot, just lying him back down to sleep. Second night he woke once, third night (and every night since barring illness)he slept through.

All in all it took 3 weeks or so when he was 11 months old and he went from waking every 60-90 minutes to sleeping through. He's 3.8 now and still sleeps very well.