Ok really - how bad is sleep training?

[Chocolatepudding85]

I have avoided it so far as I've read studies showing that cry-it-out babies still feel the same level of stress hormone when they're in their cot and not crying, they just stop expressing it (after they've been successfully sleep trained).

But I'm so tired I'm losing the plot!

Toddler DC up all night because of potty training and accidents (Won't go back to a nappy at all).

Baby DC (not far off age one) up all night feeding. Both awake at 5am every morning.

It's baby DC that I'd sleep train, obviously. Not the toddler!

I don't think baby DC needs to feed three times a night (7pm feed at bedtime, 10pm feed, then 2am feed, then 4am feed and up at 5am with no feed as he's full up from the night , and breakfast at 7).

What do I do? Is sleep training really that bad?!?! I mean, I know so many people who've done it and they have perfectly happy, secure kids.

Are these studies just giving us something else to feel guilty about?

Baby Dc only ever naps in the buggy, too.

I think that sleep training when done well has no more effect on a child's sense of security than potty training, or any other thing we teach or children.

Interesting comparison as potty training for parental benefit/to fit a societal norm is something that can cause longer term harm and difficulties for the child. Potty learning, like walking and talking, comes when the child is ready, not the parent.

But that's another story.

Perhaps potty training was a poor example give ds is only just potty training now at 3.8. FATE we had a few tentative attempts at 3 and 3.5 years when it quickly became clear he wasn't ready. Tried hin a couple of weeks ago and it clicked in a day or two so don't despair!

Just catching up on the thread. Lots of interesting and helpful points I think. Just to add that I have a handful of friends who have used CC as their first method of sleep training in a response to a baby who wakes a couple of times a night. Thankfully reading the above posts it seems like this is an abnormal approach and not sure why it's my friends in particular - my guess would be that in some areas there is a lack of knowledge about other gentler approaches perhaps?

I guess Jo Frost/Gina Ford make sense to some people.

Or Titty, perhaps people tried gentle approaches first which did not work?

The problem with a number of gentle approaches (e.g. shush/pat, PU/PD) is that they stop working once the baby gets older.

According to my maternity nurse, shush/pat works best before the baby is 4 months old and PU/PD is the most effective between 4 and 6-7 months. After that we are entering the CC territory.

Gradual withdrawal is supposed to work from 10-12 months onwards but apparently it requires certain foundational efforts (e.g. having baby on a routine, teaching baby to independently settle, etc). Also, GW may be hard to follow from a practical perspective if both parents work and/or there are other siblings that also require parents' time.

I started sleep training very early specifically because I wanted to avoid too much crying, Even gentler sleep training methods (shush/pat, PU/PD) are not cry free but I was ready to handle some crying as long as I could comfort DD.

Someone I know very well had to go for hard core CIO after 18 months of attachment parenting (co-sleeping, feeding to sleep, etc). Their first baby was a dream independent settler (a thumb sucker) so they assumed the second one will also grow into it. It might have happened at some point but they were not able to wait for 3 years (they both worked full time + they had another child to take care of + they did try everything else and it failed). I understand why they did what they did but I tried my best not to end up in the same situation (even though their CIO daughter seems very happy, confident and attached to her parents). For me it meant sleep training (shush/pat + PU/PD + following the daily routine) at an early age. DD started sleeping from 7pm to 6.30am with one dream feed from 12 weeks onwards. She is now 7 months and while there are occasional teething / separation anxiety episodes, she is good at self-settling and she never wakes up and calls for me just because she feels like it. There is always a very good reason for her night wakings (and it is never hunger). She goes back to sleep as soon as her problem is resolved and she still reacts to shush/pat + PU/PD which makes comforting easier.

Gradual withdrawal is supposed to work from 10-12 months onwards...

Is this based on theory? Where's it from, a book, a websites, me?

It's clearly not coming from practice because it shows very little understanding of the process of GW. I think of it as a parenting ethos (like attachment parenting is a parenting ethos), not a sleep training method. Therefore something that starts from birth and is followed through the whole of childhood. I am constantly encouraging my older children towards independence, rather than dependence. Hence it as a parenting ethos that applies to my 11 year old and 7 year old as much as my youngest.

As for when it "works" for sleep - as in put child in cot with dummy, walk out the room and child going to sleep without tears, alone - that depends on the child. I can tell you from my own experience that it has worked at

• 7 weeks old (DC3)
• 4-6 months old (DC2)
• 10-12 months old (DC4)

The ranges given from when it was inconsistently working through to consistantly working.

Is this based on theory? Where's it from, a book, a websites, me?

Primarily books and websites. I have read a lot of them while I was pregnant - hence why I used the words "supposed to" and "apparently". I have only got one DD so I usually try to make it clear when I speak from experience and when I refer to information I came across somewhere else.

Most sleep trainers appear to refer to gradual withdrawal as a separate sleep training method. Here is one of the examples but there are plenty of others (www.sleepytot.com/baby-sleep/baby-sleep-training-gradual-withdrawal). I see what you are saying - I understand you view GW as a parenting ethos but others often refer to it as an enabler for a baby to find a way to self-settle (or settle independently based on your definitions) in the parental presence.

I actually do like the idea of thinking of GW as a parenting ethos (it makes a lot of sense with children of all ages and this is what I am planning to do with my DD) but books on baby sleep will still describe it as an approach when the parent sits in the room, comforts the baby (verbally or physically) until they go to sleep but every day moves a bit further away from the cot.

Or Titty, perhaps people tried gentle approaches first which did not work?

I was responding to this:

Just to add that I have a handful of friends who have used CC as their first method of sleep training in a response to a baby who wakes a couple of times a night.

Amongst my peer group, at least 4 families have used CC whose babies were not on the extreme end of waking by any stretch. One used it as a first option to get her cosleeping baby into a crib. My own mother is a health visitor and I think I can say there's an issue here as she has made it apparent that they push CC as a solution onto everyone. My paediatrician suggested it after saying he's done it himself and when I mentioned the NCSS-style methods, he had never even heard of them. So we can have a guess that he is not suggesting other gentler methods to the tired parents entering his clinic. This systemic use of harsh methods is what bothers me, @riddles26 and @FATEdestiny. Does not preclude empathy (sympathy actually) for individuals.

Anyway - I'm going round in circles as the outrage machine is helping a few posters get their feels on . Have a great weekend everyone and I hope your babies sleep well.

@Grayfig, I agree, one of my NCT buddies whose baby is 5 months, her health visitor told her to do CC. She decided not to but she has night weaned another bit of advice. I think there should be more in terms of assuring parents what is and isn't normal baby sleep so expectations can be met/adjusted. Rather than 'your baby should be sleeping through/only waking once, you need to do something about it'. They're all so different.

Have a good weekend!

The systemic use of harsh methods bothers most of the posters here.

There is only 1 regular mumsnet sleep board poster I can think of who systemically recommends harsh methods that leave baby to cry. She is understandably not raising her head above the parapet on this thread. But she is a lone voice in her views, as far as I can think of from sleep board regular posters.

You are pitching your battle to the wrong people here. You are definately pitching your battle against the wrong person with me. I have argued long and hard (with poster mentioned in orevious paragraph) about the benefits of the dummy for gentle, no-crying sleep. It's not attachment parenting but it's no less gentle, kind and parent-present.

None of the regular posters of the sleep board posting on here would suggest the use of harsh methods as an initial suggestion. Ergo the Mumsnet population is proving a different dynamic to your peer group Grayfig. Which is perhaps a good thing.

@Grayfig and @HT85 I have explicitly stated throughout that I favour gentler sleep methods on each post I have written. Where I disagree with you both is the judgement you show towards those who have used methods you wouldn't use yourselves. @Grayfig, you yourself just said Does not preclude empathy (sympathy actually) for individuals. Who made you the judge and jury for which individual gets empathy and sympathy and which doesn't? You both make it clear from your posts that you feel you are morally superior for using the methods you do and that's what I disagree with. Everyone is doing their best at parenting and I strongly believe in not judging other people until you have walked in their shoes.

@Grayfig I share your viewpoint on breastfeeding too but I also don't believe in judging which FF mums tried hard enough and which should have tried harder. They all have their reasons and it's not my place to decide who is worthy of empathy.

I have nothing to say to @FATEdestiny as she has had an extremely nasty and personal attack on my choices in the past. I stand by the fact that I made the best choice for my family at that time. I was the one that lived through it and I know what happened. I will NEVER make a desperate new mum feel hopeless and useless like she did to me as I know too well how comments like hers almost tipped me over the edge.

The other poster Fate refers to has worked for a sleep consultant in the past and is extremely knowledgable. I personally would prefer to use gentler methods first and I can say from first hand experience that she and sleep consultants will support you on this if this is the parenting style you opt for.

@Grayfig and @HT85 I have explicitly stated throughout that I favour gentler sleep methods on each post I have written. Where I disagree with you both is the judgement you show towards those who have used methods you wouldn't use yourselves. @Grayfig, you yourself just said Does not preclude empathy (sympathy actually) for individuals. Who made you the judge and jury for which individual gets empathy and sympathy and which doesn't? You both make it clear from your posts that you feel you are morally superior for using the methods you do and that's what I disagree with. Everyone is doing their best at parenting and I strongly believe in not judging other people until you have walked in their shoes.

@Grayfig I share your viewpoint on breastfeeding too but I also don't believe in judging which FF mums tried hard enough and which should have tried harder. They all have their reasons and it's not my place to decide who is worthy of empathy.

I have nothing to say to @FATEdestiny as she has had an extremely nasty and personal attack on my choices in the past. I stand by the fact that I made the best choice for my family at that time. I was the one that lived through it and I know what happened. I will NEVER make a desperate new mum feel hopeless and useless like she did to me as I know too well how comments like hers almost tipped me over the edge.

The other poster Fate refers to has worked for a sleep consultant in the past and is extremely knowledgable. I personally would prefer to use gentler methods first and I can say from first hand experience that she and sleep consultants will support you on this if this is the parenting style you opt for.

Interesting thread.
I do think sleep can be as emotive a subject as breastfeeding and formula feeding.
My two cents is that it's hard to find advice and books on the middle ground. I am firmly in favour of gentle / no cry sleep methods but want to encourage healthy sleep habits and independent sleep, and am open to considering various methods, especially those that have been proven (by research) to be more beneficial than harmful.
I bought "The Gentle Sleep Book" and while I found the information about what constitutes "normal" baby sleep reassuring, and got a few useful tips from it, I did find it was a bit thin on practical advice, and I wasn't too impressed by the (mostly) unsubstantiated "all sleep training is evil" position. I would appreciate a more balanced, evidence based discussion of the pros and cons of different methods.
So if anyone has any book/blog recommendations for a more "middle ground" approach please do share!

I found that this website is quite a useful resource although it doesn't have as much info on the gentle / no cry methods as on the others:
www.mybabysleepguide.com/2010/10/sleep-training-index.html

riddles

I haven't read all the posts so sorry if this is repetition

We have done controlled crying twice at different times when our child when they were between 1 and 2. Feels brutal but works so quickly that it was worth it. First night she'd scream for 30 mins, second night 8 minutes, third night 30 seconds!

She's now over 2.5 years and we've done gradual retreat which has worked well but takes a bit longer (but not much crying so feels less cruel). Saying that she's up for the day at 4.15 today!!

You're a parent, your job is to teach them things. One of those things is how to sleep.

One of my friends was very anti sleep training with her first. Told me is caused brain damage. (When I was sleep training) Then she had her second who was a bad sleeper. She changed her mind.

It works. It's not cruel. There's been no studies on the affects on babies bodies who constantly wake up in the night.

We have done controlled crying twice at different times when our child when they were between 1 and 2. Feels brutal but works so quickly that it was worth it. First night she'd scream for 30 mins, second night 8 minutes, third night 30 seconds!

Controlled crying - as far as I understand it -does not involve a baby screaming for 30 minutes! Unnecessarily cruel IMO.

You're a parent, your job is to teach them things. One of those things is how to sleep.

Sleeping is instinctive. All animals do it. If children need help to get to sleep it should be done at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way.

It's not appropriate to teach a child to cook by leaving them alone in the kitchen with a set of knives. It's not appropriate to teach a 17 year old to drive a car by putting them in one and leaving them to it.

Controlled crying/CIO teach nothing about soothing or relaxing. It's a clear message of "mummy/daddy has had enough and you need to do what I want or else".

@NameChange30 another posted this on a different thread months ago and I find the blog articles fantastic on here.
childsleepscience.wordpress.com/home/resource_articles/
They don't have an in depth description of a particular sleep training technique but give lots of ideas on how to break habits such as rocking or feeding to sleep. They also have posts on the science of night wake ups/regressions/napping etc so you can see why there is a problem and how to fix it. It has been my saviour over the past 2-3 months.

They do offer sleep consultancy too and from the quality of the free advice, I imagine they would be good but I haven't used it to confirm that is the case.

titty what do you suggest parents do when they have tried all other methods and their mental health is affected from lack of sleep? Just put up with it right?

I don't like AP for this very reason.

@fatedestiny are you talking about me with your harsh methods?