Ok really - how bad is sleep training?

[Chocolatepudding85]

I have avoided it so far as I've read studies showing that cry-it-out babies still feel the same level of stress hormone when they're in their cot and not crying, they just stop expressing it (after they've been successfully sleep trained).

But I'm so tired I'm losing the plot!

Toddler DC up all night because of potty training and accidents (Won't go back to a nappy at all).

Baby DC (not far off age one) up all night feeding. Both awake at 5am every morning.

It's baby DC that I'd sleep train, obviously. Not the toddler!

I don't think baby DC needs to feed three times a night (7pm feed at bedtime, 10pm feed, then 2am feed, then 4am feed and up at 5am with no feed as he's full up from the night , and breakfast at 7).

What do I do? Is sleep training really that bad?!?! I mean, I know so many people who've done it and they have perfectly happy, secure kids.

Are these studies just giving us something else to feel guilty about?

Baby Dc only ever naps in the buggy, too.

Sleeping is instinctive.
That's your experience. My daughter resists sleep with all her strength. I clearly remember a day when she was 5 weeks old and slept less than 8 hours in 24. I tried everything I could think of - breastfed her for 3-4 hours on end, took her out in the pram, took her for a drive, cuddled her and the list goes on. My dad came and tried to help but no luck. I was in tears as I was so exhausted myself but nothing would work. My husband took over as soon as he got home from work and I got some rest. Unfortunately things did not improve much from that day, she resisted sleep right until I sleep trained her at 5.5 months. She would be a happy baby in waking in the morning and get progressively grumpier and clingier over the day due to tiredness but refuse to nap. I tried everything - and I mean absolutely everything.

I used a sleep consultant and PU/PD so was with her throughout and she was constantly cuddled and knew I was there but she had to be taught that it is time for sleep and there is no option now but sleep. Of course, there were times she cried in response to this as she was used to me giving in once I couldn't handle her crying. It was one of the hardest things ever but it worked and she generally sleeps well. However, if she is given the opportunity to miss a nap today, she will still take it. She doesn't want to sleep but I have had to teach her that it's non-negotiable. She needs the sleep as there is a clear difference in her behaviour when she has slept and when she hasn't.

@TittyGolightly sleep deprivation in babies is harmful. Numerous good quality studies have shown a negative effect when babies and children do not get enough good quality sleep when they are growing. There is not a single good quality study to indicate any harm from CC or CIO. Someone who has sleep trained can turn this on it's head and say attachment parents who have dealt with hourly wake ups for months on end have harmed their baby by not teaching them to sleep - but they have empathy and don't say that.
While I am the first person to advocate gentle methods, CC is definitely a better approach than a baby not sleeping over an extended timeframe.
Mothers health also needs to be considered, everyone has a different tolerance to sleep deprivation so you are in no place to judge how others choose to get their children to sleep.

I have a genuine question regarding cc. Does it actually change the way the baby sleeps in so much as it makes them sleep in a deep sleep for hours on end?
My 11 month old is pretty bad and always has been. Ranges from 2-3 wakes ups per night to hourly. We've recently night weaned so it's just a case of popping dummy back in and she's straight back to sleep (thanks FATE on dummy advice btw, best thing we did 👍🏻)
So if we did cc, surely she would still sleep in sleep cycles and briefly wake up but being sleep trained, would be able to go back to sleep without any parental input right? I fail to see how she would actually be getting any more significant amounts of sleep?
I'm basically responding to the pp who has implied I'm harming her development because she must be so sleep deprived. I am but I just don't think she is!

@Purdyandwheezy I'm so sorry I didn't mean to imply that at all and I genuinely don't believe you are harming her development. If she is a happy baby, she is developing just fine, no matter how you approach sleep.

My comment was aimed at those who keep saying CC is harmful and that parents who use it are harming their babies. My point was that those who use CC can apply the same principle to beat attachment parents with a stick if they really wanted to.

@Purdyandwheezy the idea of sleep training is that babies no longer need parental input to go to sleep. They still wake as that is the scientific norm for baby sleep. Many people who believe their babies 'sleep through' actually don't, it's just that they don't cry and what not. Hope that helps.

Riddles and Mountain, you keep throwing the AP term around. That is fine, but I don't consider myself AP. I just don't believe in sleep training. I don't put myself in a parenting box, I'm sure you don't either.

@HT85 so if she is a light sleeper who wakes frequently now she still would be if sleep trained. Therefore it would primarily be for my benefit not hers. Which I'm not judging anyone for, I'm a SAHM so not in the same position as someone having to do a commute and a full days work on little sleep I just wish people would stop going on and on about how it was all for the baby's benefit.

Yes I'd say it's just as offensive to say you're somehow doing your child a disservice by seeing to them at night as it is to just let them get on with it on their own.

This is useful @Purdyandwheezy

@riddles26
Thank you very much for sharing that link! I've been reading the posts and I like what I've read so far - seems very balanced and sensible
DS is 5 months old and in a developmental leap (I'm using the Wonder Weeks app) but when that's finished I think I will try following some of the advice.

It's my pleasure @NameChange30. Developmental leaps are so tough - mine is 10 months and I feel like we have been alternating between a developmental leap and new teeth for weeks on end but it always reassures me when they correlate with the website and wonder weeks.

@Purdyandwheezy this is taken from the link I referred to..
Babies with mature sleep patterns have deep sleep dominating the first third of their night. After this, lighter stages of sleep (such as stage 2 and REM) take over. Once your child enters deep sleep, this will likely be her longest, best stretch of sleep in the night. You could make dinner in a small apartment, watch a loud movie, or a sibling sharing the baby’s room could call for you and still not wake a baby in deep sleep. Later in the night, however—especially the last third of the night—things change. This is the time of night when your child is most likely to be awakened by noise and it’s also harder to go back to sleep. Sleep problems during this time of night are some of the most challenging.
Sleep cycles occur every 60–90 minutes at night, with a brief wake-up at the end of each cycle. This is normal, natural and no cause for concern. The trouble arises if your baby doesn’t know how to go back to sleep on his own at these wake-ups. In that case he may end up calling for you every 60–90 minutes, and for most families that isn’t sustainable long-term.
REM sleep is when your baby dreams. It typically dominates the early morning sleep. Young babies make a lot of noise when they are in REM sleep (laughing, crying, and sucking) because they do not have REM-sleep paralysis the way adults do. Because of this, they may also “practice” motor skills such as rolling, rocking on all fours, and even sitting, which sometimes causes them to wake up. This is the time of night when your baby is most susceptible to being awakened by noise, so an ideal sleep environment throughout the night is essential.
I hope that helps explain a bit about your baby's sleep. There is also another post on interpreting night wakings which may help you establish why your baby is waking at night and therefore address the cause.

In my case, sleep training was 100% for my daughters benefit - she was sleeping so little and her mood was clearly affected. I'm pretty sure it was harming her development at the time. Saying that, I was at home like you currently are so we used a gentler approach that took longer to achieve. My aim wasn't her sleeping through, and at 10 months, she still does not sleep through which is of no concern to me as she will do it when she's ready. She sleeps a decent amount at night and naps the appropriate amount for her age and I am content with that.

Others will do it for parents benefit and sometimes this is necessary depending on family circumstances. I believe that every good parent acts with their family's best interests at heart whether it's sleep, feeding, toilet training etc that they are dealing with.

Purdy with an 11 month old waking 2-3 times a night I wouldn't have bothered sleep training, in fact we didn't as dd was much more like that in terms of sleep. We just kept her in our room so that wakings were just a case of hiving her a quick stroke and getting back into bed myself. Dd was generally much easier to placate as we could bring her into our bed and she would settle well, she also cut out night feed herself. Up to around 8-9 months she woukd have a quick bf and then settle in our bed.

Ds would never settle in our bed and was exactly as described in riddles post- waking every 60-9 minutes then needing rocking for 30 minutes which is unsustainable. I was not working but pregnant and it was absolutely awful. I do think children need to have good sleep but I also have no qualms about needing some sleep myself......but then I don't believe sleep training in the way we did it had any detrimental effect on ds at all., so why wouldn't we. Both of my dc still wake in the night but they find their dummy, get themselves comfy and go back to sleep so I only notice if I happen to be awake anyway.

I really sleeptrained my 3 month old (I know that will spark outrage somewhere) after my family nurse and GP gave me the green light to start. This was because she wouldn't nap at all in the day and then sleep for 10+ hours a night. She was very very upset and distressed every day making herself sick after every feed. We tried everything but nothing worked so was advised to sleep train her. 2 weeks later she now sleeps 10 hours at night with 2 feeds and then is down for 4 naps a day! Heaven to finally have hands free and a very very happy dd! She has stopped throwing up, is now gaining back lost weight and is just overall happier since we started putting her down for naps 😊We used the gradual extinction CIO

That's your experience. My daughter resists sleep with all her strength. I clearly remember a day when she was 5 weeks old and slept less than 8 hours in 24. I tried everything I could think of - breastfed her for 3-4 hours on end, took her out in the pram, took her for a drive, cuddled her and the list goes on. My dad came and tried to help but no luck. I was in tears as I was so exhausted myself but nothing would work. My husband took over as soon as he got home from work and I got some rest.

Lucky you. I was alone with DD for 80% of the week and my parents lived thousands of miles away. DD hated (still does) missing out on anything so I too had to find ways to get her to give up and go to sleep. None involved ignoring her or letting her cry though. We used:

*thumb sucking - her choice from just a few days old

• music - a track that was in the charts and played often when I was pregnant and listening to the radio on the way too and from work. Not a typical lullaby but DD found it comforting *movement - rocking the pram against my hip in time to the music, bouncing the bouncy chair or swinging the hammock, rocking her in my arms or in the car worked. We never used a fixed place for naps because I didn't want to be tied to one place.

This combination still works at 6 years old (although the pram, hammock and bouncy chair are all gone). Worked brilliantly this summer during a flight, to adjust to a 7 hour time difference etc.

None of it was planned but it all came together as the weeks went by. I'm not sure whether DD's ability to sleep anywhere and anytime is genetic (from me) or learned but it's bloody brilliant and means the entire world is our playground. :)

titty

She didn't ignore her. Pupd is not ignoring.
Yes she cried but her mum was there and plus she was crying anyway even when the women wasn't sleep training.

And lastly so fucking what if she let her cry !
That doesn't make anyone a bad or worse mother.
Get of your high horse as well

@Timetogrowup2016 it's interesting you decide people are on their 'high horse' just because they don't agree with you. Pretty aggressive response.

@TittyGolightly 's reponse shows she clearly feels she is superior to me because of the method she used. She has no appreciation for the fact that she has parented her child and I have mine. I tried her methods for my child - they did not work. Yes, I had help from family and thats the ONLY reason I made it to 5.5 months with such a sleep deprived, clingy baby. Ive seen her posts on other threads too and they are horrible - she can be extremely nasty and believes only her way is the right way.

@HT85, you mentioned in one of your earlier posts, your daughter woke every 45 mins at night for a month. I don't agree with allowing that but I don't judge you for it. You are doing what you feel is best for her and you know your daughter better than anyone else, especially better than an internet stranger.

You will see from my posts, I never judge the way someone brings up their child as I strongly believe in not doing so. I will say what I feel is a good approach based on my experience but I acknowledge that my way is not the only way.

I'm going to leave this thread now because as they say - you can't argue with stupid - and thats what I feel I am doing every time I post in response to you..

riddles

Well bloody said :)

"I don't agree with allowing that"

I don't understand this. It's not a case of "allowing" it. I imagine the baby continued to wake to despite the parents' best efforts to help her to sleep longer.

I think it's a bit weird to say we "allow" our babies to do anything, DS would hardly understand if I tried to forbid anything
Do you simply mean that you were determined to teach your baby not to do it?

^ on reflection I shouldn't have posted that, sorry - I don't want to clumsily weigh in to such a hot debate! Don't want to take sides or offend anyone. As you've said riddles I don't want to judge anyone and I respect the fact that everyone does what works for them.

Sorry @NameChange30 I phrased that badly. I meant I would intervene at that point as in my opinion - my current settling method is not working so something needs to change, even if it does involve some tears. Saying that, I would ride through it if it was regression/teething/illness etc.

This is exactly why I don't judge - there are too many ifs and buts involved!!

Indeed!

@riddles26 you quite clearly think YOU are superior by calling us stupid, saying you wouldn't 'allow' your baby to wake every 45 mins (which is a normal baby sleep cycle ) and you have called me ridiculous in some posts further up. What a walking contradiction.

That's a judgement of your pathetic attitude towards other mums who are also doing their best, not a judgement on your ability to parent your daughter.

Anyway, I'm out of here now.

@riddles26 see ya 👋🏻

As an absolute final note - I copied and pasted some information on baby sleep cycles at night and that clearly explains how long they sleep for and how frequently they are likely to wake. Sleep cycles are 60-90 minutes at night, and babies tend to have a longer stretch of deep sleep before that so I personally wouldn't be happy with 45 minute wake ups unless she was unwell/teething etc. However your daughter, your choice

I think riddles26 did not appreciate Titty's comment "lucky you". I know I wouldn't have.

If Titty's DD was able to suck her thumb from early days, it was actually Titty who was a lucky one. I have seen a baby who learnt to suck his thumb in the womb and who was able to do as soon as he got very basic hand coordination (in fact, I am not even sure if he knew the thumb was part of his body - he was just able to find it when he wanted). It was a great source of comfort and it made self-settling much, much easier.

Most of sleep issues arise with babies who do not know how to self-settle. You can either wait for them to grow into it (which may takes months or years depending on how lucky you are) or you can try and teach them.