Concerns about racism

[PandoraSocks]

Hi there Mumsnet HQ

Many of us are concerned about the uptick of hatred, xenophobia and racism on the site over the past couple of weeks. Most of the bigotry is focused on asylum seekers. MNHQ will of course delete racism etc. if reported, but this has gone way beyond a few hateful posts.

Links below to three examples of threads which have descended into real nastiness.

Cheers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/5385273-civil-unrest-whats-really-going-on?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5385914-do-you-believe-there-will-be-a-civil-war?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5386073-to-be-so-fed-up-amd-disheartened-with-all-the-xenophobia?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I’m so glad you have posted this. The misinformation is alarming and the hatred that’s allowed to stand, baffles me!

I’ve hidden those threads already, OP - it was pretty obvious which way they were headed from the get-go.

Came to see if anyone had mentioned this and here you all are!

I don’t want to sound like or be accused of ‘why doesn’t MN just agree with ME’ but it’s absolutely horrifying, some of the posting. And I really do think a lot of it is not…. entirely genuine.

An immigration topic might be the only answer but I agree with the pp that it will just become a hell hole and if I was MN I wouldn’t want to host a place like that.

I think it’s ramping up and deliberate and someone is behind it

leaving ut standing “normalises” it - which encourages people that such horrific thinking is ok

and taking it down leaves the site open to accusations of left wing liberal twatismn

really needs someone at MNHQ full time on this to fact check and pull anything dodgy and maybes even steer ( because if it is being coordinated and steered they need to fight fire with fire

I completely disagree. There are posters who I recognise who only contribute to xenophobic and racist threads, spouting the same lies and prejudice over and over again. No matter how many times you challenge them, they keep repeating the same lies. Race hate is not having a 'different view' and these posters aren't up for a discussion.

However, we can’t just shut people down who have different views - and that’s where the difficulty for MNHQ lies.

Definitely @BIWI but it would be nice to think they would fact check abject lies.

I think it boils down to nobody from MN reading any of the threads unless a specific post gets reported. Even then they won't delete it just for being hate filled lies.

I don't want to shut anyone down, but I do think it is possible to establish where the line is and delete posts which cross it.

Of course not, and I don't think that's what anyone is actually asking for @BIWI. Everyone should be able to express their views, even if I find them to be repugnant.

But where posters are making explicitly racist remarks and/or spreading misinformation, I do have an issue, and I think MNHQ has a duty to remove such posts. If racist comments or posts containing misinformation are reported but not removed, then I think it's reasonable to expect MNHQ to provide a brief explanation as to why they think it's fine to leave the post up.

I am entirely willing to accept MNHQ's editorial decisions as it is ultimately their site and they can choose to publish whatever they like on it. However, I would like to understand their reasoning for allowing racist content to stand so that I can assess whether I want to continue using the site.

I agree. I’m pretty sure we could all name half a dozen and our lists would be identical.

It is disgusting, and disappointing to see such posts being allowed to stand. Like a pp poster here said, I do not have the energy to spend, responding to such posts. It would be like trying to hold the tide back, at the sea shore.

I have a lot of sympathy for this. But it’s a shame that the most prominent sort of racism on MN, antisemitism, doesn’t seem to get a mention on this thread.

The Middle East ‘discussions’ by the ‘anti-Zionists’ are a festering shithole of racism.

Agree wholeheartedly - the racism plus the godawful 'user experience' means I spend less and less time here

Don't think I'm the only one either as the site seems very quiet sometimes and there's been a noticeable exodus of familiar names again

I agree, it's very troubling. The trouble is that amplifies it within the echo chamber, and could lead to a site wide under current.

Look at what's happened with FWR for example. It's become more and more extreme - can't stick up for or mention trans people without them or you being called predatory/peados/rapists/perverts. And it's spilling out of the topic, which I have hidden.

It's really difficult to not be drawn in though, so I contribute which just adds to the problem! (On the racist threads and anti trans ones)

I'm not sure what the answer is, aside from more stringent moderation, but it would need an awful lot of moderating and stricter guidelines.

If it is genuine racism then it should be deleted along with any racism.

If it's a different viewpoint then not so much. As with any posts.

I agree. But it doesn’t happen. And too few on MN seem to care about antisemitism.

The problem I think is that racism is growing in society and to shut down racist opinions feeds it - people need to listen or you split society

and unfortunately like Brexit it’s an emotive issue - facts don’t cut it because people don’t believe facts

people are scared , they see living standards decline and they are told that it’s a problem caused by immagration and that’s easy to agree with because immigrants are different, easy to spot, and your instinctive brain goes “yeah absolutely “ - racism is hardwired into humanity I think

people like to focus their hurt and anger on something visible

we can see that throwing all the immigrants out won’t solve the problem but would make them worse, but they don’t believe this and it’s a belief

and once the law makers who banned racism have lost the trust and faith of people , their laws about racism mean nothing

the solutions have to be building in hope , improving living standards, solving the real problems which can’t happen overnight

I think arguing about different brands of racism is a fruitless exercise and a red herring. The issue is that it’s proliferating at an alarming rate and MNHQ either hasn’t noticed or is reluctant to deal with it.

It’s gone beyond reporting individual posts now, there are whole threads full of misinformation and vitriol and if something isn’t done to sort it out the site will be unusable by the majority of regular posters. I’m missing a few names already.

Well, that is a fair point. I have seen some horrible examples of this and reported it when I have seen it.

You will see the discussion above and concerns about the airing of The Great Replacement Theory on MN, which is an anti-semitic conspiracy theory. So anti-semitism does come under the umbrella of the thread title.

It's the same with all forms of racism. Of course antisemitic posts should be deleted, but like many other racist posts, they may be left to stand. It is unacceptable in my view, but there is nothing unique about it.

I care as much about antisemitism as I do about any other form of racism, and I have called it out on MN on multiple occasions, reported it to MNHQ etc. That said, I don't subscribe to the view held by some here that any criticism of the Israeli government is inherently antisemitic.

I think arguing about different brands of racism is a fruitless exercise and a red herring. The issue is that it’s proliferating at an alarming rate and MNHQ either hasn’t noticed or is reluctant to deal with it.

This!

It’s not about “arguing about different brands of racism”. It’s about the notable exclusion of antisemitism in what is otherwise a worthwhile thread and overdue call for change.

Totally agree.

The OP started a thread to talk about racism on MN in general. I don't think antisemitism is in any way excluded from the discussion. What makes you feel that it is?

I disagree. The Gaza discussions especially always end up being dominated by genocide and famine denialists. There are still far too many people on MN who conflate antisemitism with criticism of the Israeli government's actions. They are not the same thing.

Well, the OP doesn’t quote a single thread in which the problem is Jew hatred. And nobody mentioned antisemitism in any subsequent post.