Concerns about racism

[PandoraSocks]

Hi there Mumsnet HQ

Many of us are concerned about the uptick of hatred, xenophobia and racism on the site over the past couple of weeks. Most of the bigotry is focused on asylum seekers. MNHQ will of course delete racism etc. if reported, but this has gone way beyond a few hateful posts.

Links below to three examples of threads which have descended into real nastiness.

Cheers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/5385273-civil-unrest-whats-really-going-on?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5385914-do-you-believe-there-will-be-a-civil-war?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5386073-to-be-so-fed-up-amd-disheartened-with-all-the-xenophobia?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Yes, it is a shame the raving lunatic racists have co-opted the Union Jack and the George Cross as their racist symbols.

There is a fundamental problem with the way that MN moderates imo. I think they operate on a quick, "tickbox" approach that requires minimal thought or engagement from the moderators.

I was on a thread the other day with a ridiculous OP who was very rude and argumentative towards anyone who didn't agree with her. Someone made a very mild and fairly inoffensive statement about the OP sounding "bonkers". It was deleted when the OP reported it, presumably because MNHQ felt that it fell into the category of "personal attack" and it therefore ticked a box of not being allowed.

Meanwhile, there are many vile, blatantly racist posts which are left to stand because they don't quite tick the moderators' boxes. There is no nuance or judgement involved as far as I can tell. So if you learn to bypass the talk guidelines, you can be as racist and as xenophobic as you like, with no consequence.

I wish MN would adopt a different approach, but as others have pointed out, it may suit their purposes quite well if the bunfights are boosting their revenue. So the only option may be to vote with our feet and to alert the advertisers on our way out. Not all brands will want to be associated with the free expression of racism and xenophobia.

This is a true story. On my local town council one of the councillors suggested that he write a "welcome to the area for new residents" in the newsletter, and specifically mentioned the fact that we had some asylum seekers in the area in that context. He was elected on a Reform platform. And more than a couple of people refer to him as "Nazi (name here)" to his face, his views are so abhorrent.

It would be lovely to see some real debate around immigration, but that is never going to happen. To be honest I am coming to the conclusion that MN forums have run their course and should largely be ended. There is no need to have wide-ranging boards - there are plenty of places elsewhere on the internet where people can whip up their own brand of frenzy. This site now has to be the worst possible advertisement for families, parenting / motherhood etc going. It is the laughing stock of the internet, routinely acknowldegement not for its great parenting advice but for its toxicity. And the majority of boards aren't required. Other sites have managed to avoid this toxicity by avoiding certain types of discussion and hitting it straight out of the field if anyone tries it.

It hasn't done Martin Lewis any harm, has it?

Maybe that is the only way forward - deny everyone the oxygen, limit to boards that are informative / advice, and ban absolutely everything else.

This is a terrible idea, create a place for people to froth in their hatred

Not that I expect it would stop the racist crap being posted everywhere.

It worked with the trans posts that completely overwhelmed the general boards for a while. It’s very rare to see any since MNHQ moved every thread to FWR. Since I never go there I’m oblivious to what they’re posting. I’d like the same to be true of the xenophobia. It would be possible to find a name for it that didn’t attract the innocent.

Thank you for starting this thread @PandoraSocks

I find it disheartening that mnhq has not seen fit to comment, despite you posting it in site stuff

… yep - 4 hours ago now, and not a peep

You are othering human beings that are in distress and discussing how to silence them and eradicate them from your space.

Maybe MNHQ is having a look through the example threads?

I agree. It adds weight to the ‘don’t care as long as we’re getting the content and eyeballs’ theory somewhat

I don't think you know the meaning of "distress". It isn't suggesting, as a number of people on this site did days ago, that people should be left to drown by RNLI. Drowning in the sea is "distress". Saying that people should be left to drown is disgusting. Different letters after the "d"....

A single board with strict guidelines over an above normal rules is easier to monitor and makes it easier to remove or move stuff elsewhere.

yhere needs to be a way to discuss the problems and people can be concerned about immigration without being racist

and even if people are racist it doesn’t mean they should be shut down and ignored

Yep, I also noted the silence from MNHQ. Disappointing but not surprising. Even if they do comment later, I don't anticipate that we'll get anything more than generic comment about how hard they try to moderate the site fairly. Which clearly isn't reflected in what we see.

Tbh, I don't think they really care. It's a minority of posters who complain about this stuff, and very often, it's the same people who raise concerns. I recognise pretty much all of you! I think MNHQ's calculation is that they can tolerate the protests from a small number of posters while the advertising revenue keeps flowing in.

What we don't know is how many posters just choose to walk away from the site without bothering to raise the issue. But maybe MNHQ doesn't care about those people either, because unless they take the trouble to actually deregister their accounts, they can probably still be included in the stats on "registered users" that MN uses to sell its advertising opportunities. For as long as we're still here, I guess we're complicit to a certain extent.

The requests/ suggestion/ demand for MN to fact check doesn’t align with what Mumsnet is. It has never fact checked and I can’t see it moving in this direction. The model is for posters to provide push back and challenge where they see fit.

‘Society’ can move to the left or the right, and as it does so, it is likely that MN posts will reflect this If people are becoming less tolerant of more susceptible to posts that promote intolerance, we would go well to unpack why this is as opposed to wanting to dismiss what is, allegedly, an ever growing number of people. I don’t read any of the threads on migration of immigration, this isn’t something I used MN for. However, this thread gives the impression that the posts that invite intolerance and division are more compelling than factual posts that challenge that position. I tend to think that those seeking to promote tolerance and inclusion might want to think about how to win over the good faith posters who are being pulled towards an opposing view.

MN position, as far as I’m aware, has always been to remove posts that don’t comply with UK law, but beyond that, to provide a platform for all views - even if they offend or upset.

Nobody is discounting anyone. We are merely asking that people express their thoughts without resorting to racist tropes or misinformation.

I also agree with some of the other posters that an immigration section would be a terrible idea. Yes, I would love not to have to read it, but it's the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears while the bots and racists had their own echo chamber to generate hatred in. Any post that supplies misinformation or encourages hatred of any group of people simply should not exist.

You are discounting that people express themselves the way they are able and you are discounting their feelings and responses because you dislike the way they speak.

Do you want MN to just be for lefties to chat amongst themselves about great it is.

Quite. I vilified nobody. I pointed out that arguing people should be left to drown is a disgusting comment. And it is - regardless of who that person is, deliberately leaving someone to drown is murder. Not distress.

I tend to think that those seeking to promote tolerance and inclusion might want to think about how to win over the good faith posters who are being pulled towards an opposing view

Many of us, me included, have put a lot of time and effort into posting verifiable facts to counteract the racism and lies.

It is an absolute waste of time.

These posters don't want to be won over. They are here simply to stir up hate and racism and signpost people the likes of Yaxley-Lennon.

Are you suggesting that all the right wingers on MN are the racist ones then? Because I think you’ll find that most of them simply aren’t!

Facile post. It’s nothing to do with right vs left - it’s about stopping outright racism being posted.

Obviously not. How could you possibly deduce that from reading this thread? Some of us enjoy intelligent political debate and have had some interesting discussions with people whose views differ from ours. That’s not what’s being objected to here.

The only people who can determine whether their views are formed or motivated by hate are those expressing them.

Social media, and to some extent society at large, has become highly polarised. People tend to take up simplistic positions and insist these positions are right and true. In reality, life tends to be multifaceted and highly dependent on context.

Yeah @MrsBennetsPoorNerves and others who’ve said similar. Maybe it’s just time to go. It’ll be no loss to Mumsnet, they can find plenty to replace me I’m sure so it’s not about flouncing or taking a stand. I don’t want to, so much community now is online and it’s so hard to find one that stays on the right side of the line between lively discussion and pages of lobbing crap at the ‘others’. Ditched Facebook more than a decade ago, then Twitter. I suppose I was naive to think a moderated site would be able to hold a community better.