FWR

[MarsScarlet]

FYI: I've name changed for this to avoid a pile-on.

This post is about the overwhelming negativity and hostility with the FWR board that new posters and posters with a differing viewpoint face if they attempt to use the board.

There is a persistent group within the board that are, to put it simply, hateful towards others. Despite posting there on and off for more than 4 years, I have never felt welcome, despite not holding any particular extreme views or being abusive to others. Without exception, I am accused of being another poster, or a man, a TRA, or some kind of paid activist. This occurs again and again until I leave a thread in frustration.

I’ve seen this happen to many other new posters. Few return. Why would they? Such an acidic atmosphere doesn’t encourage healthy discussion. I’d just like to discuss women’s rights, but this board makes discussion impossible.

I’m not exactly sure what the answer is, except for @MNHQ to request the board to tone down the rhetoric a bit and back off on any new names they may see on the board. Let people engage with you rather than actively drive them away.

I haven’t read the full thread (always a mistake to post before reading….!)

I’ve been on the FWR board for a few years under different names (so nobody really knows who’s a newbie just from their name). I find it robust and challenging, but I haven’t generally come across the name-calling you describe. I think most of us have honed our arguments well enough to have pretty firm views, but lots of us welcome genuine challenge, supported by logical arguments and verified data. If someone is offering a different point of view, but based simply on an emotional response, or eg some random post from Twix, then yes, that’s going to get run down pretty quickly.

It’s a great place to test out whether a particular position logically holds together

@PepeParapluie Yes I agree with everything you've said in reply to me. I think I am just not always feeling robust enough to take on all the extremely well formed arguments!

You're proud of 'plopping'. Dear me.

Of course! I'm saying (I think, I'm sort of formulating thoughts as I go) that my views fall between "TRA" and "TERF" (please note the extreme quotation marks, I am not using either term in a derogative manner) and it is hard to find a space to voice this. But I also understand it's not FWR posters' place to provide me with this space.

That's fair. But what I would say is if you really want to see abuse, try coming out with any defence of women's sex based rights, even the most half arsed, milquetoast one that grudgingly concedes that TWAW but some women and girls might need to be treated with kindness because of past trauma from men, on other parts of social media. Reddit, Twitter etc.

Asking questions about posts you've made, on a thread you started is not derailing.

Quite

That's fair. But what I would say is if you really want to see abuse, try coming out with any defence of women's sex based rights, even the most half arsed, milquetoast one that grudgingly concedes that TWAW but some women and girls might need to be treated with kindness because of past trauma from men, on other parts of social media. Reddit, Twitter etc.

Oh absolutely. I totally agree that FWR is far more 'civil' (I know that's a loaded word too!) than many places where the issue is debated. I haven't seen much/any really actual abuse left to stand on the threads.

Totally understandable, I’m not always in the mood either and have to take breaks from FWR sometimes as it can be quite mentally tiring.

That's fair. But what I would say is if you really want to see abuse, try coming out with any defence of women's sex based rights, even the most half arsed, milquetoast one that grudgingly concedes that TWAW but some women and girls might need to be treated with kindness because of past trauma from men, on other parts of social media. Reddit, Twitter etc.

I would add to this- many of us who've run that gauntlet of abuse from TRAs might have a tendency to not treat others with kid gloves. But I think we're generally fairly reasonable if someone is genuinely coming to a thread with questions or asking us to explain our position. There is a lot of trolling on FWR and Mumsnet in general (and all of social media) and I think some posters are a little naive about the extent of it.

Doh meant to quote my own post there!

No. Sorry you don’t get to silence a person by saying what they’ve said is ‘pointless’. And certainly not on a wholly incorrect assertion.

I quoted that section of your post

‘the stance that they're all perverts with genital obsession that some vocal posters have’

because, and only because, it highlights everything that’s inaccurate and exaggerated (maybe even hyperbolic a favourite MN word that’s over used), about the gender woo movement.

I’d say no ‘GC’ women (people) think that. But it’s said and again as a basis, as a foundation, from which to attack the GC view (I also dislike the term ‘Gender Critical’ but it’s a short cut at least).

So yes, it is absolutely on point. Perhaps the whole point.

And I understand your ‘cognitive dissonance’ to an extent. I think most of us seem to have friends who are trans, or know trans women IRL. The difference for some is that they understand women’s fears and perspectives about predatory men. So they respect that. Those trans women, like other men who understand women’s fears and concerns, do not attempt to enter, nor think they should be welcome, in women’s spaces.

2 coffees down, work started. Tea (milk no sugar) to come.

I would add to this- many of us who've run that gauntlet of abuse from TRAs might have a tendency to not treat others with kid gloves. But I think we're generally fairly reasonable if someone is genuinely coming to a thread with questions or asking us to explain our position. There is a lot of trolling on FWR and Mumsnet in general (and all of social media) and I think some posters are a little naive about the extent of it.

I can understand that. I suppose one of the big problems with online debates is that it can be hard to interpret tone, and it becomes hard to know when people are being genuine or just trolling, which leads everyone to take a defensive stand sometimes - I mean, see the tone of my first post on this thread 🫣 I understand that people's fingers have been burned. I may one day get brave and start my own thread in FWR!

There are posters who do post to help clarify their thoughts though. And if those posters are up front, they often get loaded with information and opinions from all sides of the discussion (because there are plenty of people who do have different perspectives) and then they are left to make their own decisions.

Unfortunately, what can happen in the thread is that someone comes through and makes a derisive and inflammatory comment about the board and then derails the thread. Or the OP turns around and makes a derisive and inflammatory comment about the board or the posters.

I am not saying that this is what you would do, by the way NotAPartyPerson but I have seen good threads . They were started with clear and good intentions and the OP didn't turn out to be just someone trolling, looking for screenshots or luring in posters to then demonise them, which unfortunately happens more often than not.

Take a thread for instance that was posted to discuss Trump but in that OP the OP took the opportunity to make the point (or imply the point) that FWR or feminists were 'aligned with the far right'. That is never going to be a positive outcome.

But it happens like this all the time. I think you will find that posters on this thread have done threads in that style very recently and that is why this thread has turned out how it has.

Exactly

thank you for this reply, i think you hit a nail on the head... i love learning, and i love conversations that make me think, and i'm always open to changing my viewpoint on stuff if people with more experience/knowledge are willing to share.

It isn't often that something this jarring as this person happens, and it is quite a profound event in how its making me realise where my boundaries are with all this, and i'm still working through how i feel about that, as ultimately, that boundary feels like a challenge to what i believe about tolerance/acceptance of the people around me, and such an epiphany needs time to contemplate, probe and allow to settle... i'm not there yet!

I understand that @Helleofabore. And I understand why posters in FWR are protective of the space. I hope that if I were to start a thread it would indeed go as respectfully as I might now hope. This discussion has actually given me a bit of hope!

can understand that. I suppose one of the big problems with online debates is that it can be hard to interpret tone, and it becomes hard to know when people are being genuine or just trolling, which leads everyone to take a defensive stand sometimes - I mean, see the tone of my first post on this thread 🫣 I understand that people's fingers have been burned. I may one day get brave and start my own thread in FWR!

I hope you do! Thank you for being so open minded and honest, it's a breath of fresh air.

@PepeParapluie

I understand the cumulative effect of many posters challenging you (or any poster) is a bit overwhelming. But I guess what I’m saying is, it’s not because there’s an acceptable viewpoint on FWR and posters are intolerant of dissent. It’s because there is a prevailing viewpoint and posters want to understand or interrogate (in an academic/ debating sense, not a personal sense!) new or dissenting ideas.

What about the tactic they use when they want to put off a discussion where they start swapping cake ideas? It's happened on this very thread, too. That doesn't seem very tolerant nor academic.

Where are the cake recipes?

What's with all the 'they' posts, OP? Who is it you mean? Either it's some.posters who are here on this thread, in which case it's a bit rude to 'they' us, or it's too vague for anyone to respond to.

<hangs head in shame>? It was eating a Jaffa cake, this is an example of reinterpreting into a cake recipe

Is that it?

I hope you do! Thank you for being so open minded and honest, it's a breath of fresh air.

Thank you too. It's been great to have the discussion. Not often I leave a thread like this feeling better about things! I'm glad I didn't plop today 😉

@Helleofabore

I am not saying that this is what you would do, by the way NotAPartyPerson but I have seen good threads . They were started with clear and good intentions and the OP didn't turn out to be just someone trolling, looking for screenshots or luring in posters to then demonise them, which unfortunately happens more often than not.

Take a thread for instance that was posted to discuss Trump but in that OP the OP took the opportunity to make the point (or imply the point) that FWR or feminists were 'aligned with the far right'. That is never going to be a positive outcome.

But it happens like this all the time. I think you will find that posters on this thread have done threads in that style very recently and that is why this thread has turned out how it has.

Can't posters make threads on whatever they like? (Obviously, FWR-related of course.) I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I have found winterbones that until I came to MN, I had no articulate idea about boundaries. It was robust discussions that I watched and now take part in that allowed me to work out my boundaries.

In being pushed to articulate my thoughts, I realised how I needed accurate information to work it out. This issue became one that was impacting my home life so I started trying to establish what was happening. I started researching it from many different angles. And I realised just how disappointing it is that often our national broadcasters and media don’t give a balanced view. I now look at original source content to then work out if the opinions in the mainstream media are accurate.

It is exhausting. But sometimes this robust discussion about the veracity of information on FWR actually helps enormously because it forces all sorts of links that can be read.

You are not there yet? Of course it takes time. I don’t think there is any personal shortcuts, do you?