FWR

[MarsScarlet]

FYI: I've name changed for this to avoid a pile-on.

This post is about the overwhelming negativity and hostility with the FWR board that new posters and posters with a differing viewpoint face if they attempt to use the board.

There is a persistent group within the board that are, to put it simply, hateful towards others. Despite posting there on and off for more than 4 years, I have never felt welcome, despite not holding any particular extreme views or being abusive to others. Without exception, I am accused of being another poster, or a man, a TRA, or some kind of paid activist. This occurs again and again until I leave a thread in frustration.

I’ve seen this happen to many other new posters. Few return. Why would they? Such an acidic atmosphere doesn’t encourage healthy discussion. I’d just like to discuss women’s rights, but this board makes discussion impossible.

I’m not exactly sure what the answer is, except for @MNHQ to request the board to tone down the rhetoric a bit and back off on any new names they may see on the board. Let people engage with you rather than actively drive them away.

You feel strongly enough about people potentially using dehumanising language (no examples of such as per, shockaroons), against trans people enough to post, but will happily ignore the posts about the negative impact on women as a result of men who identify as women.

I agree with you that we shouldn't be insisting on wrongspeak with regards to what words people use. But I really do feel that the language becomes insulting and degrading, which then slips into personal attacks against other posters who then become representatives of the enemy.

Already I've had more posts aimed at me than I can respond to, including accusations that I don't care about women. I do care about women, but I won't join in this stupid gang mentality against trans people. If that's offensive to anyone, so be it.

Yes it makes total sense. I’m afraid it would (and does) get little traction. Probably just muddy the waters that have been so carefully muddied already by the gender woo people.

So our best hope is to say ‘trans-identified men, who some may call transwomen’ . Wordy but prevents misunderstandings on all sides - whether purposefully or accidentally.

For example an older person who may assume a ‘trans woman’ is a woman (so what’s all the fuss about them being in women’s changing rooms), to TRAs purposefully not understanding because of course it suits them if people think ‘trans women’ are actually women.

Do you not understand that some women find it insulting and degrading that men call themselves women? Why does that no matter?

You seem to think everyone here is invested in what you personally think about things, @PeopleLikeColdplay. Not sure why? Your posts haven't exactly been groundbreakingly original, have they? But enjoy your screenshot collection.

And where are all these personal attacks? Very few posts have been deleted, and a bunch of them were the OPs?

Do you not understand that some women find it insulting and degrading that men call themselves women? Why does that no matter?

This.

A lot of women have fought long and hard for the little progress and protection we have now , it wasn't long ago that women couldn't leave the house for long because there wasn't public toilets for them to use .

It's no surprise if we get a bit pissy , when men appear and decide to nick things we've worked for off us , without so much as a bye or leave .

I think some posters take arguments and suggestions that their position is anti woman personally and as an attack.

Personal attacks are deleted by Mumsnet if reported.

So whose standard of respectful language should we be using? Yours? The mods? A person who declares it is hate to say a male person is a male?

this is the issue once you start censuring people for their language. You are insisting that people adhere to your personal standard. Do you think that is not authoritarian and not totalitarian ?

I didn't invent being rude.

it isn't offensive to me, and in that i agree with you.. but i don't think anyone IS asking you to join in with a 'gang mentality'.... for that to happen there would need to be a gang.. which there isn't.

what there is, is a group of intelligent, like minded women who feel strongly enough about a subject to speak up about it.

There are also those of us who feel the opposite.

But when we throw around phrases like 'gang mentality' we other each other, and again, that doesn't lay the foundations of discussion, because it sets people up to argue, not listen and understand each others stances.

Right.. now i'm going to go and put dinner out, and take some pain relief that i have meant to take for the last hour but keep forgetting to.
someone ask me if i remembered, because i bet i'll forget between here an the kitchen...

Yes, but what one person considers rude, another may not. Who decides?

Interesting thread that’s clearly generated strong feelings. FWR has been absolutely instrumental in helping me to refine my thinking and better articulate my concerns re gender ideology, surrogacy and all things feminist.

I have not seen what others have described here as regulars ‘belittling’ new posters. I’ve seen A LOT of new posters coming on with the #bekind POV and not responding to legimate questions unpacking that perspective. When the new posters repeat themselves and never engage with the substantive difficult questions, it can look and probably feel like a pile on.

However, IMO, it is frustrating when a new poster digs in their virtual heels, continues to scold, all the while refusing to engage with meaningful points of the debate. I’d add that I’ve seen incredibly patient FWR regulars trying to engage ‘nicely’ (for want of a better word) and still getting nowhere.

You haven’t responded to any posts about women.

People respond to you as you post things like ‘this stupid gang mentality about trans people’ and ‘trying to get me to hate trans people’.

Which no one has done. You came onto this thread with your own set agenda, pure and simple. Even down to screenshotting posts. Which is just weird (well it wouldn’t be if you didn’t have an agenda).

And you think that this is not another illustration of the behaviour that this thread complains about?

Yes you are right Helle.

That's how I take it too.

It's so transparent I don't know what they think they are actually achieving.

I find it insulting that men can call themselves women, enter women’s and children’s spaces, enter women’s competitions, etc, and people accept that as perfectly reasonable.

I find it insulting that some men appropriate women by doing drag, caricatures of women, and I am offended that so many think it is acceptable. Where appropriating others, is 💯 not acceptable.

But who gives a shit about that?

Exactly.

I posted to you yesterday, asking if you really thought your discourse was "civil" @PeopleLikeColdplay and you replied that it was. I'm not sure if you have any idea of how you come across. But it isn't well. Maybe take some time to reflect on that, since we're doing advice.

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/08/07/clarity-matters-how-placating-lobbyists-obscures-public-understanding-of-sex-and-gender/

lifeturnsonadime · Today 17:37

ShireMaiden · Today 17:35
I disagree with people in FWR because I have a problem with the way they talk about trans people. Not because I want trans women in single sex spaces.

So be clear on what your problem is!
Is it that we say they are not women? That they are male bodied? Men?
Because the problem is if we can't name trans women as what they are then we can't protect women's spaces.
Trans women are male and are part of the oppressor class rather than the oppressed.
Calling them any sort of women is precisely what has led to them believing they have the right to be in women's spaces.

Im not intending to pick on @ShireMaiden but this exchange illustrates the issue I was commenting about… on the one hand, not liking how trans women (trans men are never the issue) are spoken about but apart from ‘man in a dress’ no specific examples of what you mean. How are posters meant to respond to such a vague accusation?

I'm not doubting anyone's intelligence here. But it seems to me that having so many people so determined to passionately state their cause, refusing to brook any argument to the contrary, it gets very unpleasant for anyone who wants to say, hey I've never had a problem with trans people and I don't mind using whatever terms they like to their face.

There's another side to this. I'm sure it feels very enriching to be part of, yes, a gang of women against a common enemy. It must be nice, but it's really horrible for anyone who has milder viewpoints.

Anyway, that's literally the point I wanted to make so I'll wish you good luck with your pain medication. I'm also on the meds so I can relate there. I hope you have a good night.

Bad dog… one of my favourite songs ever….

”this is master this is snarling dog”

“this is history this how its been

over and over and over again.”