FWR

[MarsScarlet]

FYI: I've name changed for this to avoid a pile-on.

This post is about the overwhelming negativity and hostility with the FWR board that new posters and posters with a differing viewpoint face if they attempt to use the board.

There is a persistent group within the board that are, to put it simply, hateful towards others. Despite posting there on and off for more than 4 years, I have never felt welcome, despite not holding any particular extreme views or being abusive to others. Without exception, I am accused of being another poster, or a man, a TRA, or some kind of paid activist. This occurs again and again until I leave a thread in frustration.

I’ve seen this happen to many other new posters. Few return. Why would they? Such an acidic atmosphere doesn’t encourage healthy discussion. I’d just like to discuss women’s rights, but this board makes discussion impossible.

I’m not exactly sure what the answer is, except for @MNHQ to request the board to tone down the rhetoric a bit and back off on any new names they may see on the board. Let people engage with you rather than actively drive them away.

To me, this thread proves the OP's point pretty succinctly. I generally avoid trans threads because my views don't align with the majority of the posters on the threads.

Sometimes I plop on them. Why? Because it makes me pleased when I do read them to see that not everyone agrees with the prevailing view on the thread. So if I disagree but can't be bothered with a massive argument I sometimes leave a little plop. And yes, I do get thanked for it.

The one thing that really annoys me is when you post a dissenting view and then get a response along the lines of 'are you saying women can't have opinions?' Such a ridiculous way to shut posters down, especially when (like me) they often are women!

..as many of 'us' are old and came from the days when robust arguments were presented with facts and evidence and a proper factual evidenced challenge is anticipated and welcomed.

Ahh those were the days.. If only at least the academic institutes we call universities had stayed with that tried and tested approach. Alas … they did not… And here we are, Katharine Stock et al just examples.

It is a scandal. An uncivil scandal. It will be a chapter in the history books of the future.

I wouldn't assume that they don't, given some of the dismissive and callous attitudes to women's rights a couple of posters have come out with.

Its difficult to say, when they never directly engage.

The discussion shifts to the tone rather than the actual arguments. I honestly dont know how to say 'men with a gender identity can never be women because its impossible to change sex', and stay within a respectful tone?

But not saying it helps to dismantle safeguarding and women as a class. Two important aspects of feminism.

How do i say 'men cannot be women' and not be transphobic? And the other side of the coin - how can anyone support the idea that a man can be a woman discuss feminism in any depth?

the stance that they're all perverts with genital obsession that some vocal posters have.

Nope. Nobody says that. That’s just you making stuff up.

Sometimes I plop on them. Why? Because it makes me pleased when I do read them to see that not everyone agrees with the prevailing view on the thread. So if I disagree but can't be bothered with a massive argument I sometimes leave a little plop. And yes, I do get thanked for it.

Yes, because lots of other bekind types can't back up their arguments either, and aren't actually all that kind.

Boasting about your plopping and likes is a bit sad, really.

Actually awaitingfreedom.

Don't forget that the asymmetry where a poster expects to be treated gently and have all their opinions validated as being valid and very carefully pointed out that those opinions are based on misinformation while they themselves are inflammatory, derisive and undermining is a misogynistic view. Whether it is a male poster or not.

Expecting women to post in a fashion that reflects your personal opinion of how female people should post, while not modelling that posting behaviour yourself really does seem to be a good fit for the term 'misogyny'.

and this is why we don't bother, because out of my entire post, that is the bit you chose to quote. it makes discussion a pointless exercise with you.

Yes, I probably am a bit sad. And reasonably kind, I think.

I think for me it's not that I 'can't back up my arguments', more that I would ideally like to have a more nuanced discussion (I'm not totally opposed to everything I read on FWR) and that feels almost impossible when you have 20+ people battering you with arguments.

indeed.

This is a very good example of the type of cognitive dissonance which abounds over this issue with well meaning people who don't want to discriminate or target people they see as vulnerable.

Not a criticism. Thank you for being so honest, genuinely. The issue is that I do think that a lot of these males are like the one you describe, because they are the ones I come across most. I can understand that you feel conflicted as you have friends who aren't like that.

There have been threads where a poster new to the topic will come along and post and say, this is what I think, I don't really have a full grasp but what about this, and those posters get a nuanced discussion.

@AwaitingFreedom

EDIT - I'm still wanting clarity on your feminine/masculine tones btw.

That isn't what the thread is about, and I have no interest in it being derailed further on that arc. Perhaps give it some thought on your own or make your own thread in FWR in you actually are interested.

I think for me it's not that I 'can't back up my arguments',

Well I guess we'll never know. Funny how no one ever seems to be able to bring all this "nuance" to FWR and make a convincing case.

I suppose what I'm also thinking is that often FWR feels impenetrable if you aren't willing to agree with everything the majority think. As in, it's hard to acknowledge the dissonance another poster just mentioned, because it all feels very 'all or nothing'. Of course this is the same for the opposite view too. So, for me, FWR becomes less of a discussion board, and more of a place for people already in agreement to gather. But I suppose I am perhaps not as resilient as others when it comes to surviving arguments.

I actually think this thread has totally undermined OP’s point.

OP posted a fairly vague request for things to be more civil. People tried to drill down into what that meant. Yes there were a lot of posters asking similar things, or disagreeing with what they gleaned OP meant from her relatively general opening post.

OP perceived, I think, the volume of posters disagreeing with her as unpleasant. She named an individual not even on the thread at that point as someone who was an example of what she meant. She said posters on FWR were more male in their posting style. She described the many responses as a pile on and unpleasant. She said she felt she had to leave the thread.

I have been following the thread from the start. I can understand why OP felt overwhelmed at the volume and strength of feeling but I don’t think anyone has been unpleasant to OP. I think some of OP’s comments have been unnecessary, e.g the ‘so unpleasant’ comment.

So if OP feels this thread is an example of what she meant by her original post, I.e feeling ganged up on if you disagree with the prevailing view, then my view, having seen her reaction on this thread is that actually, it’s because she is a bit overwhelmed by or over sensitive to being asked lots of questions or for more evidence/ detail etc.

For the record, I’m not saying that no one is ever mean or rude to each other on FWR. Of course people are. They are on every board and it’s a universal problem on the internet in general.

There isn't any room for "nuance" if you (general you) don't accept that males ever can be considered women. So first you would need to explain why other women should do that. The onus is on you (general you) , not the women who think woman is simply the term for an adult female human being, no more, no less. And no one has come up with any argument that wasn't based on being kinder to these males than to women because their needs are more important.

you can thank my morning coffee for being able to herd my thoughts into some semblance of order.

By this afternoon my regularly scheduled woollybrain will return, lol.

Cognitive dissonance is definitely the word for it, i wish i knew what to do with it!

OP perceived, I think, the volume of posters disagreeing with her as unpleasant. She named an individual not even on the thread at that point as someone who was an example of what she meant. She said posters on FWR were more male in their posting style. She described the many responses as a pile on and unpleasant. She said she felt she had to leave the thread.

I have been following the thread from the start. I can understand why OP felt overwhelmed at the volume and strength of feeling but I don’t think anyone has been unpleasant to OP. I think some of OP’s comments have been unnecessary, e.g the ‘so unpleasant’ comment.

So if OP feels this thread is an example of what she meant by her original post, I.e feeling ganged up on if you disagree with the prevailing view, then my view, having seen her reaction on this thread is that actually, it’s because she is a bit overwhelmed by or over sensitive to being asked lots of questions or for more evidence/ detail etc.

Actually, I think for the most part this does sum up my issue with FWR (I'm not the OP)! So I suppose I'm saying that a lot of people feel the same way. I find it frustrating that FWR posters may assume everyone agrees with them because lots of people feel unable to engage in the debate. But maybe you don't mind that? Genuinely pondering this, not being passive aggressive.

you can thank my morning coffee for being able to herd my thoughts into some semblance of order.

I definitely need more caffeine this morning

@WinterBones thank you for sharing the difficulty you are having. I hope you can work out a solution that does not make your real life to difficult, may be others in your group secretly think the same as you.

So I suppose I'm saying that a lot of people feel the same way.

Yes, and lots of women want single sex spaces. Evidence suggests it's a majority. Women on FWR are aware that people disagree with us. It's ok for people to disagree, isn't it?

Of course! I'm saying (I think, I'm sort of formulating thoughts as I go) that my views fall between "TRA" and "TERF" (please note the extreme quotation marks, I am not using either term in a derogative manner) and it is hard to find a space to voice this. But I also understand it's not FWR posters' duty to provide me with this space.

Edited for clarity

I can see why it might feel a bit ‘much’ to be bombarded with questions if you venture a different view. It can feel like an interrogation. I think that’s a natural result of there being a group of people who are pretty steeped in the debate and who have honed their position over a long time and lots of discussion. I don’t think the individual posters are intending to create a hostile environment, I think, depending on the dissenting view that has been ventured, there’s a mixture of either genuine interest in the poster’s position and how it fits with X Y Z, or impatience if it’s a point that has been made and responded to a thousand times in discourse on the topic. There will especially be impatience if it’s a common misconception.

I understand the cumulative effect of many posters challenging you (or any poster) is a bit overwhelming. But I guess what I’m saying is, it’s not because there’s an acceptable viewpoint on FWR and posters are intolerant of dissent. It’s because there is a prevailing viewpoint and posters want to understand or interrogate (in an academic/ debating sense, not a personal sense!) new or dissenting ideas.

I wonder if this is why people who have not encountered or personally experienced some of the things we discuss on the board dismiss the arguments. Often we're accused of lying or bigotry.

Which is frustrating if you know you're telling the truth and have done your best to check for bias including unconscious bias.

I've mentioned a sexual assault froma transwoman for example, and been accused of making it up. Rather than people understanding that that experience has prompted me to question the assertion that 'transwomen pose no risk to women'.

I know it's Not All Transwomen, but it's equally specious to argue it's No Transwomen Ever.

Anyway, sorry about the cognitive dissonance. It can indeed be very discombobulating to feel ones worldview turned upside down.

I understand that if you have a group of friends that you don't see acting in the way that people describe that you will find it discordant to read about what others who have gender identities do.

I think that maybe it is important to think about the discussions as being about the collective group and the impact on women and girl's rights. And to also understand that just because you don't mind your friends being in female single sex spaces that other people are harmed by it and unfortunately your nice friends being in a public single sex space (and only if they entered and by the sounds of it, they don't) may unintentionally harm others by their decision.

I don't believe though that feminists have argued that all spaces are 'female only'. They have argued that any space that is advertised as female only or 'women only' when there is an expectation that women means female only, that it remains that way. And if a mixed sex space is provided as an alternative.

"I know in my heart i support my trans friends in living their life, except that one, that one i don't, and can't, and what does that say about me?"

It says, Winter, that you have boundaries. And that you should have boundaries. And that maybe what women have been discussing does take a huge amount of time and emotional effort to work through. Only you can do it for yourself. I find myself reevaluating my stance frequently as I get new information. I assume that is what most people do, unless they really are ideologically driven.

I read all the views because I hope that someone can present an argument that does change my thinking and they often do. Reading extreme views that are evidenced and coherent in that person's mind does make people think even if it is jarring and full of true hate and something I disagree with.

So much of the discussion on this thread and on FWR ends up being about whether someone's interpretation accurately represents the event or the statement under discussion. Because, in my opinion, it is only when an accurate interpretation is presented that people can really fully evaluate whether they agree or not and why.

And it is that full discussion to establish an accurate base that interests me. Hence why I, and others, ask to see the information that helped form an opinion.