FWR

[MarsScarlet]

FYI: I've name changed for this to avoid a pile-on.

This post is about the overwhelming negativity and hostility with the FWR board that new posters and posters with a differing viewpoint face if they attempt to use the board.

There is a persistent group within the board that are, to put it simply, hateful towards others. Despite posting there on and off for more than 4 years, I have never felt welcome, despite not holding any particular extreme views or being abusive to others. Without exception, I am accused of being another poster, or a man, a TRA, or some kind of paid activist. This occurs again and again until I leave a thread in frustration.

I’ve seen this happen to many other new posters. Few return. Why would they? Such an acidic atmosphere doesn’t encourage healthy discussion. I’d just like to discuss women’s rights, but this board makes discussion impossible.

I’m not exactly sure what the answer is, except for @MNHQ to request the board to tone down the rhetoric a bit and back off on any new names they may see on the board. Let people engage with you rather than actively drive them away.

The op and there mates have been sent back to the playground by the dinner lady MNHQ no less 😂

@suggestionsplease1 as you are concerned with civility, please could you do me the courtesy of responding to my questions before I trawl the boards?

1 - what number of posts would you be satisfied would prove you wrong when you stated it's "Simply not true" that people misrepresent positions in the vein of "You can literally just say you think that it's unfair for males to compete in women's sports, and you'll have a TRA come on and say, "So what you're saying is that you don't want trans people to exist?""

Can I asked what you thought this contribution would achieve? Does it add to the discussion? As this thread is about analysing the tone of posts, it looks like rude snark to me. But happy to be corrected.

“Exactly like it is - combative mode engaged”

Yes, the OP set combative mode.

And demonstrated the hostile attitude that they personally have towards the board they want to disparage.

And not only that, from their posts I gather that if we justifiedly post in defence, we might be judged to be not ‘feminine’ enough by the same poster.

Well I for one am pleased that the thread remains reliably entertaining.

the whole thread can be summed up the same as every single other one has over the years.

Some people like the robust conversation on FWR, some don't. Some who don't will occasionally speak up and try to paint everyone on FWR with the same brush.. as bullies or whatever.

Those people will defend themselves robustly, as one might expect they might and they have every right to do.

Trolls will pop up and try to derail the discussion and it will, once again, turn into a trans/anti-trans conversation.

Neither side will concede they could be wrong, or could be less forthright.

Rinse, repeat, ad nauseum.

Robust conversations??
Yeah i do not like being mocked, called a man or a transactivist and feeling bullied. If that is your idea of robust, so be it.

I have never seen a trans anti trans debate on FWR, just well, women's rights are important, sex matters, sports should be segregated by sex, dont drug children that sort of thing.

I’m still wondering what suggestions OP (or anyone else?) actually has for making the space more ‘welcoming’ or ‘civil’, but she wouldn’t really explain the problem or what she was asking for. And neither has any one else as far as I can tell.

Sorry not thread the whole quickly expanding thread but I had to comment. I stumbled quite by accident on Mumsnet and FWR in particular, around the time JkR was first getting criticised. I have genuinely learned so much from the board, but by doing my own critical thinking and reading on the various topics. I am thankful for the years of knowledge and experience that so many others have, which I certainly don’t have. I like to read opposing views and enjoy intelligent - straight talking - discussion. I’ve definitely seen more pile on type thread in other boards, eg the dog one, aibu, etc.

I haven’t although thats a good suggestion, thank you.

You can post as many as you like, why don't you start with one?

I'm at a gig this evening so won't be posting from now

I didn't ask how many I could post, so I'm not sure I understand your answer correctly.

Are you saying if one post can be found proving you wrong, then you will accept it was untrue to state what you did? Yes or no, please don't change the question I've asked.

I've said repeatedly over the years, I want to be wrong. Others have said this. I want to know the logic behind the opposing side, the claims that are never clearly set out.

I first came here assuming I was wrong, that I'd missed something. So I'm happy to learn, but it's been 7 years or so, and there have been a very tiny number of posters who are honest about their position.

Actually one of the main problems is that when i ask directly, because there are specific things i need to know to make things clear, I am called rude or someone like one of the prolific posters on here pretends I've asked something different.

apologies if i ramble, sometime herding my thoughts into a straight line can be a challenge, lol.

I think for me, its because opinion on feminist issues are personal, they're built on experience, on observations, on listening, and learning... and what i think and feel and the reasons i hold those opinions cannot be argued or 'proven' by anything other than what they are built from.

There is also the problem in recent society of discussion, that there is less critical thinking, less listening to understand, and more listening to respond/argue.

I am always willing to discuss, to listen to other peoples viewpoints, and potentially to learn, learning is my ADHD's happy place.

What people struggle with is that learning doesn't mean that my view on some things can be shifted.. either because i oppose something, or i can't rationalise it to myself against my personal morals and religious beliefs, but i find joy in the learning of other peoples position, how they got there and why they hold it.

Conversation on difficult topics would be much more... fulfilling if we did more listening to understand, rather than arguing to change a view point, i feel that when we argue to change someone's view, and get upset when that view doesn't shift, it can turn a conversation confrontational, and people shut down.

Does that make sense?

I agree @popeydokey. I wish there was somewhere equivalent to FWR for the TRA perspective so I could debate it with people who are prepared to have a frank, evidence based, open discussion about it.

I’d be more than happy for those people to come to FWR for such a debate. But they don’t. And I don’t think an equivalent space exists. I honestly think most GC people would be really happy to have a proper debate with a TRA but it never happens.

I am not over keen on being called a bigot, a trans hater, transphobic, a Nazi, a fascist or a right wing nut job none of which I am but which are the go to insults from those who disagree with my views.

We've seen it already on this thread describing regulars on the FWR Sex and Gender Board as trans haters.

Unless its trying to get FWR banned - and good luck with that because the only reason it exists is to allow mn to move threads out of sight, i dont understand the point of the thread?

If poster are abusive, report and theyll be deleted. If they aren't deleted, maybe some are being oversensitive.

As i said previously, we are way beyond 'theres no danger or threats because of men in womens spaces'. So unless posters can come up with practical solutions, i dont see what they are trying to achieve by pretending its not happening?

Its no point saying things like hoards of TW arent peaking over changing room doors when noone is saying that is happening. But men are using the bra fitting services in M&S and are intimating women. To tell women to get over it on a feminist board isnt helping women. So of course responses will be abrupt.

Conversation on difficult topics would be much more... fulfilling if we did more listening to understand, rather than arguing to change a view point, i feel that when we argue to change someone's view, and get upset when that view doesn't shift, it can turn a conversation confrontational, and people shut down.

Agree absolutely @WinterBones . There are plenty of good techniques/strategies for meaningful discussion - for one, let's find what we do agree on, and where we start to diverge, and why? One person usually thinks X is more of a priority than Y, and the other vice versa, and the reasons for this are usually complex and based largely on personal experience.

A really good strategy is "tell me what you understand my position to be, in a way that I'd agree was an accurate representation". That's almost hopeless on many parts of MN but here, it has happened!

Unfortunately there are posters who are clearly extremely amused by deliberately misrepresenting what people say, then ignoring attempts to correct or engage. It only takes a smattering of such posters to disrupt everyone's attempts.

You need inhuman patience plus the ability to know when and how to argue against absurd positions without engaging directly with the poster. Beyond me most of the time!

When people have engaged it's often the case that the actual differences in opinion are very minor and they are largely found to agree. Often they have misunderstood the opposing position without realising and are arguing the GC case to FWR regulars

I wish there was somewhere equivalent to FWR for the TRA perspective so I could debate it with people who are prepared to have a frank, evidence based, open discussion about it.

Im on another site where we discuss things with trans people.

Its being going on for years now and they have no arguments. Its either sex is too complicated to know who's a man or woman, or their transition has made them as close as possible to being the opposite sex.

They cant debate because the two facts - safeguarding, and humans can't change sex are barriers to their ultimate wants.

I get that they want space away from men (or time in male spaces if they are TM), but the solution is something women dont have to take part in.

Sometimes, posters try to compromise - some men to be treated as wome in some circumstances, but it never holds to critical debate.

A strange thing for OP to do, name change on site stuff as if MNHQ does not know our various incarnations, because of course they do.

and of course they back check on posters activities to draw conclusions as to how to handle things.

@illinivich also that was a pretty telling statement

Or mischaracterised as ‘anti-trans’ and hateful.

i didn't think we could. i know when i go back to post on threads i was posting on under a different name, it automatically makes me post in the old name, not this one.

it even tells me when i reply that "you must use the same username as your first post on this thread"

@WinterBones you cannot name change within a post. What i mean is the OP name changed for this post, mumsnet will know all of OP’s names and their activities.

so complaining about other people when the complainant is guilty of bad faith is why this thread was allowed to stand. In other words MNHQ let them hang themselves,.