Page 36 | MN needs a closer watch of FWR

BodegaSushi · 2023-06-30T11:59:43+00:00

There is a concerning growth of posts with racist undertones cropping up on these boards, all under the guise of being proudly 'anti-woke'. Apparently diversity is 'woke' and worthy of derision. This is the thread I'm referring to here. Disney went woke now they're going broke http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4836570-disney-went-woke-now-theyre-going-broke Mumsnet needs to looks at why that board draws such types of posts, and why posters feel so comfortable openly airing their racism.

Boiledbeetle · 03/07/2023 17:41

suggestionsplease1 · 03/07/2023 17:32

Again, this is a complete misapprehension of why individuals consider a transitioning process.

You said in an earlier post that you are older. One of my friends who is 'read' as an older butch lesbian but doesn't tend to talk about her sexuality or identity with others much would very happily have transitioned if this had been possible for her a few decades ago.

She has lived a life unhappily in the body that she has, and this has precluded her from having intimate romantic relationships that she would have loved to had because she can not relate sexually in the slightest to the body that she has. She has missed out on a massive part of life (she would not transition now due to health concerns she already has and her age, but looks wistfully on those who are able to do so.)

She's an incredibly smart person (and is thankful that she has a gender neutral name and Dr as a prefix I'm using 'she' as that's what her close friends have always done to refer to her.) Her experience has been genuinely and consistently felt for decades.

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I am genuinely sad to hear that about your friend. It can't be easy to live in a body that causes you stress and discomfort. I don't know if she ever had counselling to help her resolve her issues, but either way it's a shame she hasn't been able to reconcile things within herself.

I honestly don't know what the answer is when people are so unhappy, but surely the medication and surgery route surely shouldn't be the first step as it is seeming it be for many now.

It took me a long time to learn to live/love with the body I had and not the one I wish I had. But I was lucky in that I did reconcile that issue in my own head and learnt to live with my female body.I

I hope you're friend manages to find some sort of peace and happiness.

suggestionsplease1 · 03/07/2023 17:41

JaneJeffer · 03/07/2023 17:38

So they're not actually happier @suggestionsplease1

Yes, that's right, because of discrimination that they face they are not, at a group demographic level, happier than non-trans people who do not experience discrimination in the same way.

They are, in general, happier that they were prior to transition.

JaneJeffer · 03/07/2023 17:44

It's kind of meaningless then

Helleofabore · 03/07/2023 17:49

DeanElderberry · 03/07/2023 17:21

Have we had a link to the Telegraph thing yet? Or to any of the racisms?

That influx from the Telegraph has not been explained at all.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/07/2023 17:50

CandlelightGlow · 03/07/2023 16:23

I expect a decent person to be willing to look at solutions that meet all needs.

Yes absolutely. The conversation can be had but if one of both sides are asserting that the needs of the other side doesn't matter, it will obviously cause conflict and no solution.

FWR claim that TRAs are the only ones doing that yet when it comes down to it even the nicest most compassionate line is "I do have sympathy but their needs are not as important". It's not productive.

I don't believe it's right that a man can identify as a woman and steal sporting places. This is a direct infringement on the needs of women.

Where is the acknowledgement of this from the other side? Or is sporting fairness transphobic?

midgetastic · 03/07/2023 17:52

Are they ? Has that been proven ?

I believe it was true in the distant past ( when transition was very rare ) but I am less convinced that more recent transitioners are happier especially in the medium and long term

If I recall the data collection that would have helped was pretty poor with too many going missing

And I am damn sure that there hasn't been any efforts to identify a control group - those women who grew up without an option to transition but who can easily see that they would have jumped at the option as a teenager or younger child

Helleofabore · 03/07/2023 17:54

Any volunteering on just how many women and girls you consider 'acceptable collateral' suggestions?

How many women and girls have to suffer harm, or self exclude for this to become an issue that you will acknowledge? Or will this just be ignored like it has in the past?

I think regular posters will be fully aware how many times it is ignored by now though.

midgetastic · 03/07/2023 17:55

You can have sympathy without accepting someone's solution

Yes it is tricky that TW can't (fairly) compete in female sports and don't want to compete in male sports , but the "don't want" is key - they have that option available and they reject it , and they reject also a trans category.

( aside: how many female players would actually be happy to compete against men if the physical differences didn't exist ? I suspect most - yet another difference between women and TW)

AlisonDonut · 03/07/2023 18:01

The conversation can be had but if one of both sides are asserting that the needs of the other side doesn't matter, it will obviously cause conflict and no solution.

The difference is, men already had access to all the facilities. Saying they are women then gives them automatic access to all female spaces without any female being allowed to question this.

So men get:
Men's toilets, unisex toilets and if they want, women's toilets.

Women get no spaces away from men.

That's the problem.

Lndnmummy · 03/07/2023 18:05

SunnyEgg · 03/07/2023 09:03

Can I ask for an example of what you find distressing?

I know there have been a couple in pp, a post on slavery was brought up, the Disney thread (which not everyone said was unproblematic, I posted that on the thread too)

Could you say whether you find women posting you cannot change sex part of the issue?

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Could you say whether you find women posting you cannot change sex part of the issue?

My issue is racism. Men/Women/Other/They whatever anyone is called or changing sex in whichever direction I could not care less. Truly. I wish everyone well regardless of what sex they are or want to be. I do not find it 'part of the issue'. My issue is racism

AlisonDonut · 03/07/2023 18:11

Lndnmummy · 03/07/2023 18:05

Could you say whether you find women posting you cannot change sex part of the issue?

My issue is racism. Men/Women/Other/They whatever anyone is called or changing sex in whichever direction I could not care less. Truly. I wish everyone well regardless of what sex they are or want to be. I do not find it 'part of the issue'. My issue is racism

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I genuinely have no recollection of seeing you on the feminist chat or sex and gender boards.

Are you saying you see racist posts even though you don't post yourself? Do you report them? Can you prove it? What work have you done to create a safe space?

Boiledbeetle · 03/07/2023 18:12

Lndnmummy · 03/07/2023 18:05

Could you say whether you find women posting you cannot change sex part of the issue?

My issue is racism. Men/Women/Other/They whatever anyone is called or changing sex in whichever direction I could not care less. Truly. I wish everyone well regardless of what sex they are or want to be. I do not find it 'part of the issue'. My issue is racism

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Earlier today I commented on a racist post. In return you said of my post

"Make no mistake, there is NO other reason for that than the fact you (as in any of you whataboutery lot) are RACIST. Just because you are uncomfortable with that label does not mean you are not the very definition of racist."Now

Now that the racist post i was commenting on has been deleted by mnhq do you have any further comments to make? Or do you remain on the side of the poster whose post was deleted for racism?

jeffgoldblum · 03/07/2023 18:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Boiledbeetle · 03/07/2023 18:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Oh I'm not expecting a response!

Britinme · 03/07/2023 18:40

AlisonDonut · 03/07/2023 18:11

I genuinely have no recollection of seeing you on the feminist chat or sex and gender boards.

Are you saying you see racist posts even though you don't post yourself? Do you report them? Can you prove it? What work have you done to create a safe space?

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Advanced search shows nothing by @Lndnmummy on FWR but a great deal on AIBU.

I have no problem with her concerning herself with race, or reporting racist posts when she sees them - that's as it should be. I do have a problem with her apparently reading a very large and busy topic without making commenting on any of them to record the racism she apparently sees, because it looks as if she's using racism as some kind of stalking horse.

Helleofabore · 03/07/2023 19:27

Boiledbeetle · 03/07/2023 18:12

Earlier today I commented on a racist post. In return you said of my post

"Make no mistake, there is NO other reason for that than the fact you (as in any of you whataboutery lot) are RACIST. Just because you are uncomfortable with that label does not mean you are not the very definition of racist."Now

Now that the racist post i was commenting on has been deleted by mnhq do you have any further comments to make? Or do you remain on the side of the poster whose post was deleted for racism?

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It was a remarkable post. Yet that racism in that post was ignored and people claiming that we have ignored what women have been telling us even sympathized with that poster. And continued to berate us.
This has been a remarkable thread. It really has been.

SerafinasGoose · 03/07/2023 19:41

Helleofabore · 03/07/2023 19:27

It was a remarkable post. Yet that racism in that post was ignored and people claiming that we have ignored what women have been telling us even sympathized with that poster. And continued to berate us.
This has been a remarkable thread. It really has been.

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If it's any comfort, I think HQ got the measure of it long ago judging by their earlier response.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 03/07/2023 19:44

DrBlackbird · 03/07/2023 13:36

It’s pretty clear that @Socrateswasrightaboutvoting meant that they felt (or others felt) that they had been attacked/ridiculed for saying "x is being racist" with other FWR posters saying "don’t be ridiculous x isn’t being racist".

Perhaps such an exchange did happen. But, it’s hard to revisit or re evaluate this argument without an example or context provided.

Going by this thread, the one example raised so far appears to be that characterising surrogacy as ‘selling’ babies is appropriation and, as such, is racist, but I’m not even sure that’s an example of what @ReleasetheCrackHen or @Socrateswasrightaboutvoting are talking about without further confirmation.

There does seems to be a lot of miscommunication on this thread. @ReleasetheCrackHen asked So, why have I touched a nerve in you particularly?

The accusation (as per the OP) that MN needs a closer watch of FWR in particular is the nerve touched. There have been many many attempts to silence women on that board by TRAs. The OP made absolutely no mention of any other boards. Why is that?

Then subsequent accusations of racism on FWR but without specific examples, and making no other accusations against any other boards, leads people to wonder if accusations of racism is another attempt to shut the board down. The one example provided of FWR racism was posters ‘being angry’ at (an apparently) black poster explaining the wiki editing process and contributing to this poster being ‘hounded’ off MN. However, when I looked at that original thread, there were only comments thanking that poster.

Evidence is very important. Both for confirmation of accusations being made, as well as facilitating learning.

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Then subsequent accusations of racism on FWR but without specific examples, and making no other accusations against any other boards, leads people to wonder if accusations of racism is another attempt to shut the board down. The one example provided of FWR racism was posters ‘being angry’ at (an apparently) black poster explaining the wiki editing process and contributing to this poster being ‘hounded’ off MN. However, when I looked at that original thread, there were only comments thanking that poster.

Evidence is very important. Both for confirmation of accusations being made, as well as facilitating learning.

I thought you were genuinely curious until the above. Its not our job to educate non allied, white women, its their job to meet us half way. The behaviour on this thread is exactly that type of behaviour that drove Reni Eddo-Lodge to write her book, a quote from which is below.

https:/renieddolodge.ci.uk/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race/

RufustheSpecuIatingreindeer · 03/07/2023 19:44

TeenDivided · 03/07/2023 15:59

I'm not sure social norms was the right choice of words here. At least I think I was talking about socially acceptable stereotypes.

10 years ago if a vaguely make looking person was in the womens toilets I'd probably have assumed they were a butch lesbian unless anything happened to make me think twice (for example if the person was aggressive or spoke in a male voice).

These days you can no longer assume a vaguely male looking person in the womens toilets isn't actually a male person, so you have to be more on guard. The TRAs have broken 'social norms' by encroaching on women's spaces, and made it harder for all women however we present.

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This

really liking your posts

Boiledbeetle · 03/07/2023 19:50

Helleofabore · 03/07/2023 19:27

It was a remarkable post. Yet that racism in that post was ignored and people claiming that we have ignored what women have been telling us even sympathized with that poster. And continued to berate us.
This has been a remarkable thread. It really has been.

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I will admit to being rather shocked to see how many people applauded the now deleted poster considering the FWR regulars were getting a battering for racist posts that no one could even direct us to the thread where they might have once resided so we could refresh our memories.

And before anyone claims the post on this thread could have been deleted for any reason I literally have the receipts. I reported it

Froodwithatowel · 03/07/2023 19:52

suggestionsplease1 · 03/07/2023 16:33

It's really not though, I don't know where this idea is coming from but the LGBTQ community is incredibly diverse and welcoming of differing expressions of gender, sexuality and appearance.

There is no binary, there is no expectation on others to be anything other than who they want to be, and to express themselves however they see fit for them. And there is a desire that their wish to do the same is respected. It's really that simple.

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Unless of course they're women who want to be out, proud homosexuals who are able to organise themselves and have groups for themselves as exclusively same sex attracted biological women. Then they may not be who they want to be, express themselves and there's no live and let live involved at all.

We've been through this a number of times. Repeating untrue information doesn't make it true.

And we still haven't heard what the proposal is to do with all the women who can't use women's spaces if male people of trans identities are in them. Where do they go? Where's their inclusion and equality of access?

Froodwithatowel · 03/07/2023 19:55

In fact in both cases the whole 'yes this was once your space and it worked for you, but now it's our space and a new and better space, and it would work for you if you'd only do exactly what we tell you, be who we tell you, and just get rid of all the bits of yourself and your reality that inconvenience us' is all highly colonialist and paternalistic.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/07/2023 19:57

Its not our job to educate non allied, white women, its their job to meet us half way.

How can we, if you're vague about what you're objecting to?

Helleofabore · 03/07/2023 20:07

I see. The board has a racism issue, but we will not get the examples.

We just have to accept that label being applied without discussion, without examples because people said so.

It really is like being on repeat.

So many questions on this thread have been ignored by the posters determined to have FWR declared a hateful board. No answers, just doubling down on those accusations.

What a ridiculous thread.

ArabeIIaScott · 03/07/2023 20:14

It's basically original sin.