Autism and MNHQ moderation

[HypocrisyHere]

I am starting this thread as suggested by @HebeMumsnet following the other thread I started last week

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4439585-MN-and-their-approach-to-autism?pg=1

The point was the lack of consistency in moderation (the screenshots contained two threads in my watchlist - one deleted due to its title, the other - the “support” thread - allowed to stand despite what many to believe to be a far, far more offensive title).

From the linked above thread you will see many autistic people who feel that MNHQ allow many posts which are based on outdated, inaccurate and harmful stereotypes of autistic people. Further, on the support thread, the majority of posters have self-diagnosed Their partners and many of us view this as extremely offensive as again, this self diagnosis is based on these outdated stereotypes (please note an individual self-diagnosing themselves is a totally different issue and though an important discussion, not one I intended to raise on my original thread). I have summarised my thoughts on that thread in my post I made on 31/12/21 at 12:09.

I also made it clear from my opening post that I think parents of autistic children also need a space to seek support (hence me questioning why first thread was deleted). I know that many parents need this. But you will also see that many of these parents often accuse autistic adults without learning difficulties of trying to advocate for their children. I can state that in my case this is absolutely untrue and I did not see any others in the thread doing so. But I want to be clear that I absolutely support the need for this but it is not fair for these parents to refer to our autism as “mild” which they frequently do. This is a very outdated term which many of us find very offensive as it is based in a neurotypical person’s view of us and not on our actual “lived experience”. Spending the majority of your school years as an outcast and a person who can be mocked is not a mild experience for a child.

On the linked thread you will also see that we have been subjected to a whole load of ableist comments - that there’s something wrong with is, that we need to realise how negatively we impact people, that we are selfish for wanting to centre the discussion on us etc. this highlights the deep misunderstanding, ignorance and downright prejudice many people have towards us.

I think many of us would welcome a productive dialogue with MNHQ where we could address these issues as well as discussing the harm threads about autistic people cause (which includes the support thread). Many of us have acknowledged that we understand our behaviours may seem “difficult” but for us many, many neurotypical behaviours, which we need to accommodate every day, are difficult for us. This is a two-way street and we won’t make progress until BOTH “sides” respect each other.

One final clarification. I am in no way attempting to speak for all autistic people here. I started the thread sharing my own opinion and many people supported me (when I last looked 65% supported me). What I have written here are my own feelings on the subject.

Thank you for asking me to post here and I very much hope we can make progress on this issue and that MN (and society in general) can become a place where autism is understood and accepted.

I am not lying. A poster stated that the racism comparison cannot be made because there is nothing wrong with being Jewish, Muslim etc. whereas there is something wrong with autistics.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

I am not lying. A poster stated that the racism comparison cannot be made because there is nothing wrong with being Jewish, Muslim etc. whereas there is something wrong with autistics.

I've literally posted the screenshots and I have several more. They speak for themselves. The racism on that thread was sickening.

Racism? Where is the racism?

You believe it's not okay for autistic people to want to be treated the same way as other minorities?

You think that's racist?

Wow

This is the new technique to derail this thread, by accusing us of racism?

New depths man. Way low. I'm really sickened now.

MNHQ if you don't do anything about the autism bashing then we all know where we stand and you make a mockery of the so called support you claim to offer.

I'm ashamed that you should put your name to such an operation.

I'm hiding this thread now because I'm so sickened by the behaviour of the people who seek to attack us.

@OnlyAFleshWound

I am comparing the abuse we get - which is rife on here - and saying would not ever be tolerated if it was other protected groups that were being spoken about eg religion based, race based, sexuality based.

Why are you trying to discredit me - do you think it will invalidate my argument? Do all the other people on this thread agreeing with me (as well as 65% on other thread) not matter?

Why do you want to shout us down so much?

To me it comes down to one thing. You shouldn't stop people getting support because you are offended.

Bigotry, denigration, slurs and stereotyping should cause offence. To everyone.

I think MN is pretty awesome when it comes to moderation

Yes they are on the whole. Sometimes they allow blind spots to develop but they’ve been pretty good at overhauling moderation policy in the past when it’s led to problems.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation of course people will try to derail the thread. It doesn't centre them

I know the post you're talking about and it was said that there is something wrong with being autistic.

@Thoosa

Could we PLEASE start by banning “ASD” and “disorder”.

ASC and condition are now considered best practice (although of course some people will have paperwork predating that).

Nobody would ever dream of saying “walking disordered”, “hearing disorder”, “intelligence disorder”, “visually disordered”.

We all know not say “wheelchair bound” or even “blind” on many contexts.

We’ve dropped “handicapped”, “invalid”, “cretin” and goodness knows how many disempowering terms.

We generally use “person first” or at least person-centred terminology for disability now. Most of society tries to be inclusive and avoid offence.

Surely we can put some of these basics right?

People say wheelchair bound all the time.

I'm a wheelchair user. You are completely incorrect that these terms have fallen out of use. They are still used by some wheelchair users.

I am comparing the abuse we get - which is rife on here - and saying would not ever be tolerated if it was other protected groups that were being spoken about eg religion based, race based, sexuality based.

You’re making perfect sense.

The only way to get people to grasp this is to compare the treatment of the neurodiverse community with other oppressed minorities. Let others try to twist that if they want.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

Racism? Where is the racism?

This poster phrased it well

Unequivocally it is wrong to appropriate Black experience and use it as a rhetorical tool to make a point. This is an ill-judged use of race discourse and it was indeed rife on the other thread.

I do find the comparisons with race problematic. I am from an ethnicity that presents as and looks like it is white but is routinely discriminated against.

It’s not the same.

@OnlyAFleshWound to get our point across as an oppressed minority, we sometimes have to make comparisons with other oppressed minorities.
Racism is accepted as being wrong (and rightly so) but ableism is fine and dandy. How's that fair?
What would you like is to compare ourselves to?
We, an oppressed minority (autistics), experience prejudice and harmful stereotyping, at the hands of oppressors,(neurotypicals) just like any other oppressed minority would.

I have a feeling that a certain poster, maybe posters, are trying to get this thread shut down.

I have reported the posts which I feel have been personally attacking me my lying about what I said on the other thread.

It is deeply distressing when you start a thread - which MNHQ asked me to do - and it’s hijacked by people telling us that we’re wrong and shouldn’t be listened to. In fact it’s a disgrace. I just want a constructive dialogue, but that seems to be asking too much.

People say wheelchair bound all the time.

'm a wheelchair user. You are completely incorrect that these terms have fallen out of use. They are still used by some wheelchair users.

You’re right of course. I have a wheelchair user in the house and they can call themselves whatever they like.

I’ve been known to call myself SpasticusAutisticus (win double of aspergers and muscle disease), but I bloody well hope MNHQ would delete “wheelchair bound” or “spastic” and I wouldn’t expect professionals to use those terms either (except in the actual muscular sense of “spastic”. God this gets complicated!)

[quote HerRoyalHappiness]@OnlyAFleshWound to get our point across as an oppressed minority, we sometimes have to make comparisons with other oppressed minorities.
Racism is accepted as being wrong (and rightly so) but ableism is fine and dandy. How's that fair?
What would you like is to compare ourselves to?
We, an oppressed minority (autistics), experience prejudice and harmful stereotyping, at the hands of oppressors,(neurotypicals) just like any other oppressed minority would.[/quote]
To suggest that racism and antisemitism are not tolerated, are 'a thing of the past', or are always clamped down on, whereas ableism is allowed, just reveals a massive lack of understanding of what it's like not to be white.

It's massively offensive and wrong to use Black people, Jews, Muslims and Asians in this way

What an abhorrent misrepresentation which again reveals your disdain for us. Why are you targeting us?

This is what you said to @OnlyAFleshWound, @HypocrisyHere - much like my supposed crime in thread #1, her offence is actually just that she's challenged you, and not let you control the entire conversation.

This is a public forum - others are allowed to contribute, and it isn't right to respond with such vitriol when people disagree with you. Many of us who have disagreed have taken great pains to emphasise that we do absolutely respect (for example) everyone's right to choose their preferred terminology - it's absolutely not a matter of wanting to impose outdated terms. Indeed, I think most of us here probably are ND in some way, with concerns (to varying degrees) about moderation!

But still, human nature is such that we don't all agree.

@Ovenaffray

I do find the comparisons with race problematic. I am from an ethnicity that presents as and looks like it is white but is routinely discriminated against.

It’s not the same.

That description applies to my ethnic background too, and as you can see, I think comparison is valid between types of bigotry. Which isn’t to say that all types of bigotry and discrimination are the same.

Maybe because I experience three (bigotries) at once the similarities jump out at me.

The same point can be made by comparing autism or more general neurodiversity, though.

The main point is, nobody should be slurring, stereotyping, denigrating, or invalidating the experience of any minority.

just reveals a massive lack of understanding of what it's like not to be white I'm not even white ffs way to show you don't understand the point by making out I'm a white poster posting from a position of prejudice.

@Thoosa

People say wheelchair bound all the time.

'm a wheelchair user. You are completely incorrect that these terms have fallen out of use. They are still used by some wheelchair users.

You’re right of course. I have a wheelchair user in the house and they can call themselves whatever they like.

I’ve been known to call myself SpasticusAutisticus (win double of aspergers and muscle disease), but I bloody well hope MNHQ would delete “wheelchair bound” or “spastic” and I wouldn’t expect professionals to use those terms either (except in the actual muscular sense of “spastic”. God this gets complicated!)

I don't know if they would delete the s slur - I hope so! I am fairly sure they wouldn't routinely delete wheelchair bound, as that's not widely regarded as a slur in standard British English - more of an outdated term / unfavoured by PWD.

(I am not saying I support this term at all! I think my comments on language may make it sound like I support more outdated language, but I really don't - I wouldn't use this term, and don't use functioning labels. That's never the point I am making when I comment on language.)

@HerRoyalHappiness

just reveals a massive lack of understanding of what it's like not to be white I'm not even white ffs way to show you don't understand the point by making out I'm a white poster posting from a position of prejudice.

Your ethnicity isn't the point. The point is that it's wrong to use race and ethnicity in this way in this discussion. That other thread was full of it, and there were many posters who pointed it out. They were given a load of abuse too

To suggest that racism and antisemitism are not tolerated, are 'a thing of the past', or are always clamped down on, whereas ableism is allowed, just reveals a massive lack of understanding of what it's like not to be white.

It's massively offensive and wrong to use Black people, Jews, Muslims and Asians in this way

Or indeed other marginalised groups. I'm a lesbian and I do not like it when sexuality is used in this 'comparing oppressions' way in public discourse.

I think that very localised and specific, focused, detailed comparisons can at times be helpful - ideally with evidence - to prove one specific point about poor moderation (e.g. you are moderating this slur but not that slur). But I don't think it should slide into general comparison.

And here it is all over again. A thread meant for autistic people to feedback to MN about how we feel targeted and the same posters arrive here trying to change the focus and discredit us.

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet please can something be done about this. Why are non-autistic people turning up in this thread saying. We are wrong. Then accusing us of racism in an attempt to discredit us? I repeat, this is deeply distressing and I feel Personally attacked purely because I am autistic and trying - probably in a futile way - to reduce ableism directed against us.