Autism and MNHQ moderation

[HypocrisyHere]

I am starting this thread as suggested by @HebeMumsnet following the other thread I started last week

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4439585-MN-and-their-approach-to-autism?pg=1

The point was the lack of consistency in moderation (the screenshots contained two threads in my watchlist - one deleted due to its title, the other - the “support” thread - allowed to stand despite what many to believe to be a far, far more offensive title).

From the linked above thread you will see many autistic people who feel that MNHQ allow many posts which are based on outdated, inaccurate and harmful stereotypes of autistic people. Further, on the support thread, the majority of posters have self-diagnosed Their partners and many of us view this as extremely offensive as again, this self diagnosis is based on these outdated stereotypes (please note an individual self-diagnosing themselves is a totally different issue and though an important discussion, not one I intended to raise on my original thread). I have summarised my thoughts on that thread in my post I made on 31/12/21 at 12:09.

I also made it clear from my opening post that I think parents of autistic children also need a space to seek support (hence me questioning why first thread was deleted). I know that many parents need this. But you will also see that many of these parents often accuse autistic adults without learning difficulties of trying to advocate for their children. I can state that in my case this is absolutely untrue and I did not see any others in the thread doing so. But I want to be clear that I absolutely support the need for this but it is not fair for these parents to refer to our autism as “mild” which they frequently do. This is a very outdated term which many of us find very offensive as it is based in a neurotypical person’s view of us and not on our actual “lived experience”. Spending the majority of your school years as an outcast and a person who can be mocked is not a mild experience for a child.

On the linked thread you will also see that we have been subjected to a whole load of ableist comments - that there’s something wrong with is, that we need to realise how negatively we impact people, that we are selfish for wanting to centre the discussion on us etc. this highlights the deep misunderstanding, ignorance and downright prejudice many people have towards us.

I think many of us would welcome a productive dialogue with MNHQ where we could address these issues as well as discussing the harm threads about autistic people cause (which includes the support thread). Many of us have acknowledged that we understand our behaviours may seem “difficult” but for us many, many neurotypical behaviours, which we need to accommodate every day, are difficult for us. This is a two-way street and we won’t make progress until BOTH “sides” respect each other.

One final clarification. I am in no way attempting to speak for all autistic people here. I started the thread sharing my own opinion and many people supported me (when I last looked 65% supported me). What I have written here are my own feelings on the subject.

Thank you for asking me to post here and I very much hope we can make progress on this issue and that MN (and society in general) can become a place where autism is understood and accepted.

I'm an autistic person joining the calls on this thread for action on this. Thanks for raising it op.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

It's all a case of my life is so much worse than yours type of thing. Autistic Suffering Top Trumps I call it.

It's Autistic Suffering By Proxy.

Surely there will be nothing left to talk about if every thread that might possibly cause offence is removed.

Maybe we need to promote the social model of disability more? I thought it was widely known but possibly not.

Lack of childcare, lack of therapeutic input, lack of specialist education or differentiation are often the worst aspects of having a child on the spectrum and I appreciate it can seem like a slog. The ECHP process drive me into full time caring for a year. If services were better, maybe parents would feel less negative about the autism itself?

Anyway, I digress slightly.

The point is actual autistic people should get their voices heard.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

Yes they complain about how hard it all is and how awful autism is and how their child is so much more affected by it compared to someone like mine.

You sound like you're competing with disabled children about how hard your life is?
Grim.

@Cherryblossoms85

Surely there will be nothing left to talk about if every thread that might possibly cause offence is removed.

Why?! Can’t you think of anything constructive and supportive the neurodiverse might have to say to each other? If not, why not?

Do you apply the same logic to discussions of race?

You sound like you're competing with disabled children about how hard your life is?

It's not a competition. I was an autistic child once and now I'm an autistic adult and mother to an autistic son.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

You sound like you're competing with disabled children about how hard your life is?

It's not a competition. I was an autistic child once and now I'm an autistic adult and mother to an autistic son.

You're making it sound like a competition.

The race to the bottom.

Or are we just 'all about the bairns'? 🙄

You have no idea of what I'm talking about as this is a historic problem and you don't know the context.

@hollstype

You sound like you're trying to stop discourse around this subject. Autistic adults are permitted to talk about this subject.

If services were better, maybe parents would feel less negative about the autism itself?

I think it might be more a feature of the neurotype.

You sound like you're competing with disabled children about how hard your life is?

We were those disabled children. Now we're adults. We are allowed to talk about our experiences with parents of autistic kids making it all about them.
FFS I have a daughter with ADD. You don't see me jumping into threads were posters are discussing their ADD/ADHD and making it all about how I have it soooo much worse because DD has it and also has selective mutism and os clearly much more affected than those posters.

Without* parents of autistic kids making it all about them.

@holistype. We are trying to raise awareness of how autistic adults - who would formerly been diagnosed with Asperger’s or High Functioning Autism* - are subject to continual prejudice and ableism on MN and how this is actively condoned by MNHQ by allowing threads such as the “married to someone with Asperger’s, support thread here” to continue.

One of the issues we face is that parents of autistic children tell us often that we should stop speaking for their child and that we have mild autism. It is simply not fair to do this and shows a deep misunderstanding of OUR autism and how it affects us. They need their support, we need ours and both are totally different yet both totally necessary.

You are not being helpful by incorrectly stating we are trying to “compete” with these children. That is categorically untrue and your misrepresentation of us i personally find offensive.

*note: I’m just using these labels here, not suggesting they are appropriate

I think it might be more a feature of the neurotype.

Also possible.

There has to be a way to draw up simple talk guidelines, though.

I honestly have never read the threads about the trials and tribulations of being married to an autistic person despite having been here pretty much from the beginning. Why? Probably because I know they would upset me.

My experience is almost exactly the opposite of the one discussed above as I am the parent of an autistic child who finds the boards dominated by the voices of diagnosed and undiagnosed articulate autistics. I rarely see posts from the carers/families of less articulate, learning disabled or non-verbal autistics despite this being the majority of diagnosed autistics. I think this is true in RL support groups too.

The reality is the two groups have totally different outcomes in mind when they disclose their diagnosis. One to highlight the huge impact of the less visible disability, and the other to ask you to look past the very obvious disability and see the person.

The ''support' thread you refer to is utterly vile and I'm astounded that it was ever allowed. It is deeply offensive to autistic people. I thnk MN would be hard pushed to find a single autistic person who was fine with it. How can it possibly be ok to ride roughshod over a vulnerable minority like this? This would not be acceptable for any other protected group.

But I raised my disgust when that thread was first started. MN weren't interested in the feelings of the targeted group then and they're not interested now. Although they're getting better at pretending they are.

I was married to a man who I suspect is on the spectrum. The reason I think this is because my child is diagnosed as being on the spectrum and having gone through that process I can see similarities.

My ex would never wish to pursue a diagnosis though. So I wouldn’t post on a thread about autistic partners or ex partners or soon to be ex partners because he’s not diagnosed. I suspect I myself am on the spectrum, although I am not as impaired as either my child or my ex.

I can see exactly why the support thread causes hurt and upset but I can also see why it is needed. There are specific challenges in managing manifestations of neurodiversity when in a relationship and I personally found those challenges too difficult for me. And a thread to share those might have been helpful for me to vent and get coping strategies from.

However, on this thread alone, there has been reference to “the neurotypicals” and I don’t think that is fair use of terminology either. It wouldn’t be ok to talk about “the autistics” or “the neurodiverse”

Maybe we all need to be aware of our use of language as much as possible?

Back to the moderation issue can I just share this doozy from 05/03/2019 14:38?

”MichaelMumsnet

”Hi all, this thread is part of a long-running discussion on Mumsnet.
”It was originally set up with the following request:

”This thread is for partners seeking to understand the dynamics of their relationship with someone with ASD. It is a support thread, and a safe space to have a bit of a rant. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
”ASD partners welcome to lurk or pop in, but please don't argue with other posters and tell them they are wrong).”

I can see 3 or 4 problems with that.

Sweeping generalisations only to be avoided “if possible” (by NTs).

There apparently exist people called “ASD partners”. (Akin to “blindness partners”, “blackness partners” or “gayness partners” maybe?) I think he means neurodiverse posters.

These “ASD partners” must not tell the posters “having a bit of a rant” that they are wrong or advocate for themselves in any way (not merely “if possible”).

Plus the horrible “disorder” acronym again.

It’s undeniably slanted, isn’t it?

*the neurodiverses

Maybe we all need to be aware of our use of language as much as possible?

Sometimes I call them 'the normies' would that be better?

It’s undeniably slanted, isn’t it?

Yep. So neurotypicals can slag off autistics as much as they want but if we dare to stand up for ourselves that's a no no.

However, on this thread alone, there has been reference to “the neurotypicals” and I don’t think that is fair use of terminology either. It wouldn’t be ok to talk about “the autistics” or “the neurodiverse”

Cross post but I think I just did reference “the neurodiverse”. NT and ND are the most neutral, safest terms. Adding the definite article doesn’t strike me as a problem. We happily say “the sighted” and “the partially sighted”.