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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Autism and MNHQ moderation

326 replies

HypocrisyHere · 04/01/2022 10:24

I am starting this thread as suggested by @HebeMumsnet following the other thread I started last week

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4439585-MN-and-their-approach-to-autism?pg=1

The point was the lack of consistency in moderation (the screenshots contained two threads in my watchlist - one deleted due to its title, the other - the “support” thread - allowed to stand despite what many to believe to be a far, far more offensive title).

From the linked above thread you will see many autistic people who feel that MNHQ allow many posts which are based on outdated, inaccurate and harmful stereotypes of autistic people. Further, on the support thread, the majority of posters have self-diagnosed Their partners and many of us view this as extremely offensive as again, this self diagnosis is based on these outdated stereotypes (please note an individual self-diagnosing themselves is a totally different issue and though an important discussion, not one I intended to raise on my original thread). I have summarised my thoughts on that thread in my post I made on 31/12/21 at 12:09.

I also made it clear from my opening post that I think parents of autistic children also need a space to seek support (hence me questioning why first thread was deleted). I know that many parents need this. But you will also see that many of these parents often accuse autistic adults without learning difficulties of trying to advocate for their children. I can state that in my case this is absolutely untrue and I did not see any others in the thread doing so. But I want to be clear that I absolutely support the need for this but it is not fair for these parents to refer to our autism as “mild” which they frequently do. This is a very outdated term which many of us find very offensive as it is based in a neurotypical person’s view of us and not on our actual “lived experience”. Spending the majority of your school years as an outcast and a person who can be mocked is not a mild experience for a child.

On the linked thread you will also see that we have been subjected to a whole load of ableist comments - that there’s something wrong with is, that we need to realise how negatively we impact people, that we are selfish for wanting to centre the discussion on us etc. this highlights the deep misunderstanding, ignorance and downright prejudice many people have towards us.

I think many of us would welcome a productive dialogue with MNHQ where we could address these issues as well as discussing the harm threads about autistic people cause (which includes the support thread). Many of us have acknowledged that we understand our behaviours may seem “difficult” but for us many, many neurotypical behaviours, which we need to accommodate every day, are difficult for us. This is a two-way street and we won’t make progress until BOTH “sides” respect each other.

One final clarification. I am in no way attempting to speak for all autistic people here. I started the thread sharing my own opinion and many people supported me (when I last looked 65% supported me). What I have written here are my own feelings on the subject.

Thank you for asking me to post here and I very much hope we can make progress on this issue and that MN (and society in general) can become a place where autism is understood and accepted.

OP posts:
Thoosa · 04/01/2022 22:09

Can we all just agree that nobody should be subject to stereotype or slur because of their minority group status?

Innocenta · 04/01/2022 22:09

@Innocenta

To suggest that racism and antisemitism are not tolerated, are 'a thing of the past', or are always clamped down on, whereas ableism is allowed, just reveals a massive lack of understanding of what it's like not to be white.

It's massively offensive and wrong to use Black people, Jews, Muslims and Asians in this way

Or indeed other marginalised groups. I'm a lesbian and I do not like it when sexuality is used in this 'comparing oppressions' way in public discourse.

I think that very localised and specific, focused, detailed comparisons can at times be helpful - ideally with evidence - to prove one specific point about poor moderation (e.g. you are moderating this slur but not that slur). But I don't think it should slide into general comparison.

Sorry, the first bit is a quote from @OnlyAFleshWound

(I'm so crap at formatting, I do apologise to all.)

Thoosa · 04/01/2022 22:10

X post.

Hopefully they’ll address it tomorrow @HypocrisyHere

HerRoyalHappiness · 04/01/2022 22:10

And I asked what you'd like us to compare it to.

As a poster who is a minority in many different ways (autistic, non white, physically disabled) I'd like to know.

I notice I didn't get an apology for assuming my race.

Innocenta · 04/01/2022 22:13

@HypocrisyHere The topic is also ableism. Why do you think others affected by this should not be allowed to comment? I have been bringing this up with MN for weeks; I agree wholeheartedly that it affects autistic people (and I would support several of your moderation suggestions, eg less ableist titles for partner threads), but not only autistic people. Other ND people are affected, and I think it's needlessly exclusionary to try and make it a 'diagnosed autistics only' zone. As I explained, I'm not even certain I am allistic. But I do know I'm ND, and severely disabled in multiple ways - and affected by ableism - and thus have an interest in MN's disability related moderation.

OnlyAFleshWound · 04/01/2022 22:13

@HypocrisyHere

And here it is all over again. A thread meant for autistic people to feedback to MN about how we feel targeted and the same posters arrive here trying to change the focus and discredit us.

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet please can something be done about this. Why are non-autistic people turning up in this thread saying. We are wrong. Then accusing us of racism in an attempt to discredit us? I repeat, this is deeply distressing and I feel Personally attacked purely because I am autistic and trying - probably in a futile way - to reduce ableism directed against us.

I didn't even post on that other thread. I read the whole thing last night with increasing horror.

Op, you seem to think that anyone making any criticism or comment of any sort about neurodiversity is a personal attack on you

It is not the case. You can't try to shut down people discussing their own lives and experiences among themselves just because they don't say exactly what you want them to.

Of course personal attacks or bigotry should not be allowed, but you are way out of line with your wild accusations and insinuations about anyone who dares to have a different viewpoint from yours

OnlyAFleshWound · 04/01/2022 22:16

@HerRoyalHappiness

And I asked what you'd like us to compare it to.

As a poster who is a minority in many different ways (autistic, non white, physically disabled) I'd like to know.

I notice I didn't get an apology for assuming my race.

I am sorry for assuming your race. Of course non-white people can also talk about race in ways that I personally am uncomfortable with (i am also not white).

I don't think it's appropriate to use any minority group's experiences as a rhetorical device or analogy for another type of experience. Racism, homophobia, ableism etc. do not exist as neat examples of each other. They are all very very different things.

PeaceONoeuf · 04/01/2022 22:17

I don’t want ASD banned if we are commenting here. We use disorder for other things (ADHD, eating disorder) and condition sanitises something which ime has been very hard and negative to live with.
I don’t really care about the partner threads because I read a bit of one, realised it was weird and now avoid them. But I guess morally it’s objectionable to host that kind of discussion really?

BachAndByte · 04/01/2022 22:20

@innocenta I agree ableism is.a wider problem. But there is definitely more overt discrimination against autism than other ND “things” (although ADHD is catching up a bit)

I haven’t, for instance, seen a support thread for posters with dyslexic or dyspraxic partners, despite those sharing some executive function issues with autism.

behindanothername · 04/01/2022 22:20

I would also agree this needs tackling. I work within the disability/neurodiversity space, am autistic/adhd with neurodivergent children.

I spend a huge amount of time talking about, discussing and educating because I am very aware a lot of the people I work with will either have no experience of neurodiversity, be parents of diagnosed children or diagnosed themselves. There is a huge amount of education needed around this topic, which itself is enormous.

Could Mumsnet not put a chat together with a professional that the adult neurodiverse community agree is a good voice like Dr Nancy Doyle or Amanda Kirby? Another amazing voice for parents of children would be Kit Messenger.

When people speak on an open forum like this, arguments inevitably happen, maybe when presented with a speaker or series of speakers/bloggers who are current, education and change could happen?

And please remember that a huge amount of the time neurodiversities crossover each other and co-exist with other conditions so no one neurodiverse person will be the same as another and therefore sweeping statements or saying autism looks like this or this, never works!

Neurodiverse adults were neurodiverse children, often in an even less educated time and so are passionate about making change and trying to help in explaining their views. Like everything, different people communicate in very different ways and patience is needed when discussing topics, from all sides!

HerRoyalHappiness · 04/01/2022 22:21

Racism, homophobia, ableism etc. do not exist as neat examples of each other. They are all very very different things.

I know that but what this boils down to is

Minority group experiences prejudice and harmful stereotypes at the hands of oppressors.

Now an easy way for people to understand that is through race. They already know racism is wrong. (Not that there aren't racists, they know its wrong though) in a way they may not realise how wrong their ableist comments are.

Innocenta · 04/01/2022 22:22

[quote BachAndByte]@innocenta I agree ableism is.a wider problem. But there is definitely more overt discrimination against autism than other ND “things” (although ADHD is catching up a bit)

I haven’t, for instance, seen a support thread for posters with dyslexic or dyspraxic partners, despite those sharing some executive function issues with autism.[/quote]
Yes, I actually totally agree with you. I think there is more negative bias against autism. I'm curious if there's evidence supporting this (I think there is a very negative view of ADHD/ADD in children), but not in a 'curious implying I don't believe it' sense - just genuinely wondering. My impression is certainly there's a nasty attitude in the media, etc, towards autism.

HypocrisyHere · 04/01/2022 22:24

@OnlyAFleshWound

This is a statement you made - directed squarely at me - at 22:13 today:

You can't try to shut down people discussing their own lives and experiences among themselves just because they don't say exactly what you want them to

I would just like to reports what I said at 12:04 on this very thread:

Just to clarify I am not against support threads. I just think they need retitled and caveated not least because they are trying to present themselves as representative (“hopefully some will read these threads and run” is one of the comments on the support thread - this is extremely ableist and offensive)

So - yet again - you are attacking me by making out I’ve said something, where in fact I’ve said the exact opposite.

OP posts:
OnlyAFleshWound · 04/01/2022 22:25

@HerRoyalHappiness

Racism, homophobia, ableism etc. do not exist as neat examples of each other. They are all very very different things.

I know that but what this boils down to is

Minority group experiences prejudice and harmful stereotypes at the hands of oppressors.

Now an easy way for people to understand that is through race. They already know racism is wrong. (Not that there aren't racists, they know its wrong though) in a way they may not realise how wrong their ableist comments are.

I don't think it's helpful or that it helps people to understand.

Because the ways those prejudices operate are so different from each other that I think it just muddies the water. It doesn't really address the problem. And it's offensive to use people in that way.

The ways that racism can be addressed in society have almost nothing in common with what needs to be done to challenge ableism

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 04/01/2022 22:25

@HypocrisyHere

And here it is all over again. A thread meant for autistic people to feedback to MN about how we feel targeted and the same posters arrive here trying to change the focus and discredit us.

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet please can something be done about this. Why are non-autistic people turning up in this thread saying. We are wrong. Then accusing us of racism in an attempt to discredit us? I repeat, this is deeply distressing and I feel Personally attacked purely because I am autistic and trying - probably in a futile way - to reduce ableism directed against us.

I have to admit that I find this thread deeply disturbing but I can't quite pin down the words in my head. It started out as autistic people expressing unease at attitudes to autism but now it full of neurotypical people trying to trip us up, pulling holes in our comments and telling us we're communicating wrong. No shit Sherlock! Fancy thinking you've ''won' the internet because you can tie people with a communication disability up in knots.
Innocenta · 04/01/2022 22:26

@BringBackCoffeeCreams How do you know who is NT and who is ND?

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 04/01/2022 22:27

[quote Innocenta]@BringBackCoffeeCreams How do you know who is NT and who is ND? [/quote]
It's one of my super powers.

Whataday198 · 04/01/2022 22:27

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

I guess in a hierarchical society we must come somewhere between convicts and people with antisocial personality disorder, although those two groups can probably be quite charming on occasions whereas we might struggle with that 🤔
Can I just very politely ask to maybe not use a thread about prejudice on MN as a forum to make some quite nasty comparisons between disabled people/people with personality disorders to criminals. "Personality disorder" is not synonymous with being an awful human being and many people with conditions like borderline personality disorder experience terrible stigma and it's sad to see other people who experience stigma passing that on.
Ovenaffray · 04/01/2022 22:28

[quote Innocenta]@BringBackCoffeeCreams How do you know who is NT and who is ND? [/quote]
Basically, this.

I think I’m ND - but I’m not officially diagnosed. I’ve tried to be respectful and careful in my language and now I’m basically being told I’m not allowed on this thread?

Fwiw I am physically disabled, and I’m from a minority group. One of my children also has a physical impairment and one of my children is diagnosed as on the spectrum.

HerRoyalHappiness · 04/01/2022 22:30

@OnlyAFleshWound I don't think it does muddy the waters.
Yes people will have to do different things to tackle racism and ableism, but I think the vast majority of people need a blatant comparison or they just won't ever get it.
If they can understand why racism os wrong then they can understand why ableism is wrong.

Innocenta · 04/01/2022 22:30

@BringBackCoffeeCreams So you aren't against diagnosing people over the internet, then? Grin

dittymcdit · 04/01/2022 22:35

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation
And your comparison of people with personality disorders with convicts of being the lowest of the low isn't ableist, no? Though I do remember you charmingly saying on the thread yesterday that you don't like neurotypicals at all. Nice.

What i really dislike on this thread is the implication that parents of severely disabled children - disabled due to being autistic, but to the extent of being non verbal, unable to self care etc - have been disparaged because they've said that their experiences are not the same as someone diagnosed with autism but who is far more high functioning. How is seeking a safe place to discuss how challenging life can be, be wrong?

And I speak as a ND adult with a ND child.

LivMumsnet · 04/01/2022 22:36

Evening everyone.

We're getting a lot of reports about this thread so we're temporarily suspending it whilst we go through them all.

Thanks for your patience with this - we'll hope to have it up and running again soon.

LilyMumsnet · 06/01/2022 12:08

Hi all

We're going to re-open this thread now.

Please be mindful that derailing with screenshots of other threads will be deleted. Can we try to keep this discussion on track?

We are monitoring suggestions and discussing it behind the scenes, As always, we appreciate and consider all feedback.

Innocenta · 06/01/2022 12:26

@LilyMumsnet I have not posted any screenshots myself, but could you please clarify how providing proof of what, specifically, someone has said in a directly relevant related thread constitutes derailing? Given that all sides feel their words are being misrepresented...