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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Autism and MNHQ moderation

326 replies

HypocrisyHere · 04/01/2022 10:24

I am starting this thread as suggested by @HebeMumsnet following the other thread I started last week

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4439585-MN-and-their-approach-to-autism?pg=1

The point was the lack of consistency in moderation (the screenshots contained two threads in my watchlist - one deleted due to its title, the other - the “support” thread - allowed to stand despite what many to believe to be a far, far more offensive title).

From the linked above thread you will see many autistic people who feel that MNHQ allow many posts which are based on outdated, inaccurate and harmful stereotypes of autistic people. Further, on the support thread, the majority of posters have self-diagnosed Their partners and many of us view this as extremely offensive as again, this self diagnosis is based on these outdated stereotypes (please note an individual self-diagnosing themselves is a totally different issue and though an important discussion, not one I intended to raise on my original thread). I have summarised my thoughts on that thread in my post I made on 31/12/21 at 12:09.

I also made it clear from my opening post that I think parents of autistic children also need a space to seek support (hence me questioning why first thread was deleted). I know that many parents need this. But you will also see that many of these parents often accuse autistic adults without learning difficulties of trying to advocate for their children. I can state that in my case this is absolutely untrue and I did not see any others in the thread doing so. But I want to be clear that I absolutely support the need for this but it is not fair for these parents to refer to our autism as “mild” which they frequently do. This is a very outdated term which many of us find very offensive as it is based in a neurotypical person’s view of us and not on our actual “lived experience”. Spending the majority of your school years as an outcast and a person who can be mocked is not a mild experience for a child.

On the linked thread you will also see that we have been subjected to a whole load of ableist comments - that there’s something wrong with is, that we need to realise how negatively we impact people, that we are selfish for wanting to centre the discussion on us etc. this highlights the deep misunderstanding, ignorance and downright prejudice many people have towards us.

I think many of us would welcome a productive dialogue with MNHQ where we could address these issues as well as discussing the harm threads about autistic people cause (which includes the support thread). Many of us have acknowledged that we understand our behaviours may seem “difficult” but for us many, many neurotypical behaviours, which we need to accommodate every day, are difficult for us. This is a two-way street and we won’t make progress until BOTH “sides” respect each other.

One final clarification. I am in no way attempting to speak for all autistic people here. I started the thread sharing my own opinion and many people supported me (when I last looked 65% supported me). What I have written here are my own feelings on the subject.

Thank you for asking me to post here and I very much hope we can make progress on this issue and that MN (and society in general) can become a place where autism is understood and accepted.

OP posts:
BachAndByte · 04/01/2022 17:00

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

Am very much in favour of issue-specific support threads being facilitated, even on contentious issues. I would be fine with the existence of a support thread for partners of autistic people even where I found some of the posts and scenarios upsetting for personal reasons. But those threads in particular seem to have an ongoing culture that perpetuates harmful ideas, alongside whatever legitimate support and discussion is ongoing. The problem with this kind of harmful thread culture is that it's not always possible to pinpoint specific excesses in individual posts, to the extent that they break rules.
I agree with this.

I didn’t want to bring specific posts over here, but I’ve just reported an (older) post. The post I reported had the clear implication that no one should have a relationship with an autistic partner. I really don’t think that would be tolerated if it was written about almost anything else, and that goes beyond support.

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 04/01/2022 17:02

It's damaging and cruel to autistics to keep hearing our neurotype being vilified.

What about the support we could do with to discuss these issues without neurotypicals coming on and winding us up and explaining autism to us?

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 04/01/2022 17:07

Please do not through autistic people under the bus just to allow people to get support (which I personally want them to get)

If they're experiencing difficulties then why can't they start a thread about it? Why does there have to be a dedicated support thread criticising autistics? This is what I can't understand. If it was any other group it wouldn't be allowed.

HypocrisyHere · 04/01/2022 17:31

If they're experiencing difficulties then why can't they start a thread about it? Why does there have to be a dedicated support thread criticising autistics? This is what I can't understand. If it was any other group it wouldn't be allowed

I think we have to start from a point where there will be some relationships where the NT/ND relationship is challenging. Of course, this may be due to problems on the NT part - they could be narcissistic, have a personality disorder, be alcoholics or any other range of things. So I think the first thing would need to be that this is not all about “blaming the person with ASD”.

But there is no doubt that some of what we like (eg for me just sitting by myself, away from it all and doing my hobby - Lego) may be problematic for NTs especially those who are extroverted and love socialising. Thou gun of course this begs the question - why did they get together and why are they then staying together??

In my view, the two worlds are only brought closer by dialogue. Perhaps I can explain why an autistic person may be reacting in a certain way in certain conditions. Perhaps a NT can tell me why something I said has caused offence.

As it stands, the current thread - with its deeply offensive title - does none of that. It simply allows anyone who is going through a tough time to deem their partner autistic and to vent about how awful their partners are (and as far as I have read, none of it is anything like as abusive as some of the threads in MN which are totally shocking in their levels abuse)

I’m just looking for a more constructive solution, but from what YetAnotherBecky has stated above, it seems like nothing is going to change. And that the inconsistency in moderation (the subject of my first thread) will continue. I am very disappointed as I thought - finally - we were heading for a constructive discussion where we get treated as adult humans with feelings, and not cold robotic monsters as the support thread portrays us.

I also think that MNHQ forget that a partner can walk away from a dysfunctional relationship. We can’t walk away from being autistic in an NT world. And a parent cannot walk away from an autistic child. HUGE difference.

OP posts:
Lougle · 04/01/2022 17:32

I do think that it's important that understanding is created. Part of that though, is that all people with ASD have difficulties, in some way, with social interaction. Some people are cognitively able to learn strategies which reduce the impact of those difficulties on other people (often at great cost to themselves), but they still exist.

Some people who are in a relationship with someone who has ASD will not know this from the outset. It's a really confusing condition for many people to understand, and it isn't clear cut. I think it's helpful for someone to know that the behaviour they are describing in their partner/loved one is inherent to their ASD. It will either give the poster a new perspective on the behaviour and allow them to deal with it better, or it will alert them to the possibility that they need to decide whether that behaviour is something they can cope with, because it will never change, fundamentally.

Suppose someone came here and said 'My partner won't ever be spontaneous. They always insist on checking their blood sugar before they eat, or if they feel unwell. If I suggest we stop for dinner somewhere, and they don't have their insulin, they refuse. I just want a bit of excitement and to be able to decide to do stuff on the spur of the moment.' People would say 'but they have diabetes. They simply can't be 'spontaneous' and if they don't have their insulin, they have to get it.' That person would have to realise that this is never going to change. They have to decide if that is something they are willing to deal with.

I am probably autistic. I score really highly on every AQ test I've ever seen, I have 2 children with ASD. I was sent to a psychologist at 7 on school recommendation because I was really clever but couldn't cope socially. I could reel off a hundred examples from my childhood where I was 'different' or 'odd' compared to the other kids. My DH knows that I just don't do big social occasions. I can't. If when he met me, he wanted a girlfriend who wanted to go to clubs and pubs and hang out with big groups of people, he would soon realises that it just wasn't going to happen. Then, he'd have to decide whether that was something so important to him that he should move on to someone who would.

I don't think threads that highlight the core features of ASD and its many presentations are a bad thing. It's when it becomes a thread that has 'ASD means bad relationships' at its core that is the problem.

fakehuman · 04/01/2022 17:38

I also think that MNHQ forget that a partner can walk away from a dysfunctional relationship. We can’t walk away from being autistic in an NT world. And a parent cannot walk away from an autistic child. HUGE difference

Yes, totally agree.

I don't think anything will change either. I just don't see why they need a support thread which centres the problem on autism when simple incompatibility would suffice. It does beg the question why they married them in the first place. Perhaps they saw the autistic person as cute 'n' kwirky, but, once married saw the genuine difficulties be revealed as masking 24/7 leads to burnout, breakdown and mental illness.

I often wonder who's having the worse time.

fakehuman · 04/01/2022 17:46

Why don't they start by addressing the ableism in chat and aibu then?

Put a stop to the 'my dh is an arse, does he have adhd/asd' type ones? Casual disableism on the main boards is difficult to avoid, at least people know to avoid the horrible support thread in the relationship section. Give them in there some new rules to abide by?

Thoosa · 04/01/2022 18:06

Could we PLEASE start by banning “ASD” and “disorder”.

ASC and condition are now considered best practice (although of course some people will have paperwork predating that).

Nobody would ever dream of saying “walking disordered”, “hearing disorder”, “intelligence disorder”, “visually disordered”.

We all know not say “wheelchair bound” or even “blind” on many contexts.

We’ve dropped “handicapped”, “invalid”, “cretin” and goodness knows how many disempowering terms.

We generally use “person first” or at least person-centred terminology for disability now. Most of society tries to be inclusive and avoid offence.

Surely we can put some of these basics right?

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 04/01/2022 18:07

Name change fail, fakehuman is me. I should stick to watching Netflix 🙄

Thoosa · 04/01/2022 18:09

I also think that MNHQ forget that a partner can walk away from a dysfunctional relationship. We can’t walk away from being autistic in an NT world. And a parent cannot walk away from an autistic child. HUGE difference

Very true. When I have had a mad moment and looked at this threads all I can think is “LTB then. You clearly hate them.”

Maybe LTPS (Leave the poor sod) would be more appropriate.

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 04/01/2022 18:11

Surely we can put some of these basics right?

I agree and it should be easy, but the neurotypicals seem to like hanging on to outdated language and stereotypes and seem to actively enjoy arguing about how to define autism when they don't even know what it is. Unbelievable! Would they dare dictate to someone with another type of lived experience like that?! It's incredible. They must think we're all like eight years old or something.

AlfonsoTheGoat · 04/01/2022 18:12

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet

Thanks for your thoughts - we're going to continue discussing the points raised on this thread and the previous one.

We do understand how hurtful some comments can be - as already referenced; anything that generalises or assumes any xyz negative trait is due to Aspergers or Autism will likely break our GLs and will be removed if reported to us. We want to be a place where women can seek support from other women about their relationships - in many cases, they’ve no one else to talk to & are at breaking point. Removing that support is potentially very damaging and cruel.And so this is why we introduced some guidance specifically for these threads - posters can talk about their own personal lived experiences, but are asked not to generalise. We also understand the frustration of an ‘armchair diagnosis’ but also appreciate the difficulties around obtaining a diagnosis in the first place.

We’re not claiming to be experts here and nor do we get it right every time - but we strive to be fair and balanced and it’s certainly never our intention to cause upset. As always, your feedback is welcome.

I consistently report posts that are untrue or hurtful about autistic people (of which I am one). All that I ever get is the standard message of "thanks. We'll look into this."

It would be great if MN moderating finally took this issue seriously. If you have any questions, why not ask those of us who are autistic? I mean, gone through the assessment process and got a diagnosis and everything.

AlfonsoTheGoat · 04/01/2022 18:12

OP, thank you for starting this thread.

For too long MN have let posts that are horrible to / about autistic people stand, although they have been reported. It's shameful.

AlfonsoTheGoat · 04/01/2022 18:14

@fakehuman

Why don't they start by addressing the ableism in chat and aibu then?

Put a stop to the 'my dh is an arse, does he have adhd/asd' type ones? Casual disableism on the main boards is difficult to avoid, at least people know to avoid the horrible support thread in the relationship section. Give them in there some new rules to abide by?

Oh, and put a stop to "that sounds like autism to me" when someone posts that another person is being difficult. This results of a chorus of "yep. Autism." from MN's crack team of arm chair psychologists.
AlfonsoTheGoat · 04/01/2022 18:17

That’s not really the point of the op though.
The point is that posts by parents needing support are deleted because of clumsy titles, where years worth of offensive shite is allowed to stand.

Oh, nonsense. In every single thread about autism, there are parents who complain about what it's like being the parent of an autistic child. Every single thread. There is not one thread in which autistic people can talk about their experience of autism without parents talking about their experience of being the parent of an autistic child.

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 04/01/2022 18:18

Oh, and put a stop to "that sounds like autism to me" when someone posts that another person is being difficult. This results of a chorus of "yep. Autism." from MN's crack team of arm chair psychologists.

Yes, totally.

Everyone is either autistic, a narcissist or has adhd. Adhd is a recent thing from what I've seen. Years ago, the umbrella term was toxic. They must have attended training courses or something 😆

RonniePickering · 04/01/2022 18:19

Oh, nonsense. In every single thread about autism, there are parents who complain about what it's like being the parent of an autistic child.

'Complaining'? On every thread?

That is nonsense.

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 04/01/2022 18:23

@AlfonsoTheGoat

I've had some massive arguments over the years about this. That's why I object to functioning labels so vehemently. The autism parents always shout autistic posters down and dismiss and belittle our experiences. They centre themselves in the entire autism narrative. People like me and my son can naff off just because we can talk and have a shower by ourselves. Unbelievable.

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 04/01/2022 18:24

That is nonsense.

It's absolutely not nonsense. It's as predictable as hell.

Thoosa · 04/01/2022 18:25

HQ have drastically rethought things before (suicide policy, DV policy, Black MNers board, crowdfunding links etc etc).

They’re humans like the rest of us but they have made some impressive leaps on moderation policy over the years.

They can do this one too, if enough detail is brought to their attention.

what0-18.nhs.uk/health-for-young-people/mental-health-and-wellbeing/autistic-spectrum-condition-asc

www.kentcht.nhs.uk/childrens-therapies-the-pod/speech-and-language-therapy/autistic-spectrum-disorder-asd/

us.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/autism_terminology_guidelines.pdf

RonniePickering · 04/01/2022 18:27

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

That is nonsense.

It's absolutely not nonsense. It's as predictable as hell.

Complaining about their children, in every thread? Yeah, that's nonsense 😊
BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 04/01/2022 18:28

Yes they complain about how hard it all is and how awful autism is and how their child is so much more affected by it compared to someone like mine.

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 04/01/2022 18:29

Please don't gaslight me, I'm primed to look for it now.

Thoosa · 04/01/2022 18:30

@AlfonsoTheGoat @RonniePickering @BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

There is a BIT of an issue of parents of autistic DC having a different perspective to adult autists, though isn’t there?

It’s one of the stickiest points.

Although, lots fall into both categories.

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 04/01/2022 18:32

It's all a case of my life is so much worse than yours type of thing. Autistic Suffering Top Trumps I call it.

Swipe left for the next trending thread