Trans people being allowed to compete against women in the Olympics

[OhShutUpThomas]

The Olympics are now allowing men who have taken hormones for 12 months compete against women.

It is NOT transphobic to say that this is grossly unfair and a huge violation of women's rights.

Women who have trained all their lives cannot be expected to compete against people with male bodies and who will be allowed roughly 4 times the normal female testosterone levels.

It's not on. We can't stand for it.

Please get behind this mumsnet. Someone needs to take a stand.

It's NOT transphobic to state that this is unfair. It really isn't.

Floggingmolly
"I'll be deleted (again) for this; but what on earth is a "pre-op" woman, if not a man??? Or is that too simplistic?"

Joining with you on this and taking it one stage further I fail to see how someone that still has a working penis can be a woman.

I am with the OP on this.

The easy solution to this is to have the events divided into XX and YX (gonosomes),

and a gender neutral category for anyone who doesn't want to use the XX or YX classification.

cold nobody is saying that flat chested women aren't women. We are saying that men aren't women, and, barring pretty unusual chromosomal abnormalities, you can normally tell who are men and women by looking at them. Certainly when you interact, hear their voices and see them move.

A PP was saying this was ridiculous, somehow bigoted to claim that we can tell men and women apart by looking. It isn't, it's a fact.

There is nothing that makes you a man or a woman other than biology.

Its pretty obvious who's male and who's female. Especially if you're a woman and a man is punching you in the face or tackling you on the football pitch.

I've only just heard about this.
Given the extreme lengths that some sports people will go to to win I can see a male athlete deciding that 12 months of taking hormones is a fairly small price to pay for winning. It's little different to taking performance enhancing drugs.

Amongst many other things these people will not have to cope with a menstrual cycle. I find it very hard to run mid cycle for example.

Totally agree with you Thomas and really want MNHQ to get behind this. It's an attack on equality masquerading as 'progress'.

I'm glad that so many of us feel the same way about the Olympic decision.

I think it's important to remember that this is about the issue of women being forced to compete, unfairly, against male bodied athletes.
Not about their lifestyle choices, or what they want to identify as in their day to day lives (which I'm sure none of us have any problem with) but about the negative impact that some decisions, such as the Olympic have on women.

Everyone is entitled to live their lives in whatever way makes them happy - until this begins to be harmful to others.

This decision is extremely harmful to women, and to women's rights as a whole.

I am an athlete, and I don't want my daughter to suffer the inequality and disadvantage of competing against male bodied athletes.

THAT is what this is about.

So please let's not cloud the issue, or give the people who may disagree with us any ammunition to call us 'bigots' or 'transphobic' - as I for one am neither.
And I'm not going to be scared off from commenting any more.

Lord, that was preachy.

You know what I mean...!

Good last post, OP. I agree.

Xpost - not about the preachy thing!!!

I agree that MN should get behind this. I think it is even more pressing that they get behind keeping men out of women's protected spaces, including keeping Tara Hudson in a male prison.

But they won't. MNHQ have previously stated that they are in favour of the ability of self definition of womanhood and posters who have, in my view correctly, continued to call TW male on the grounds that you cannot change your biological sex no matter what you do to yourself or how you present yourself, have been deleted as such posts are transphobic and MN supports the rights of people to be identified by whatever pronoun they wish.

Ain't gonna happen. That MN have bought the TA agenda is appalling and deeply depressing.

I sort of get the impression that they haven't bought the TA agenda, but they also don't want a world of shit to rain down on them. It must be difficult.

Exactly, OP. I am fully supportive of the rights of TW to live their lives unhindered, unharmed, free from discrimination and enjoying the opportunities that should be extended to all people. I am not willing to (a) redefine womanhood to erase biological sex, substitute it with gender, such that TW are every bit as much of a woman as I am; or (b) sacrifice women's protected spaces to admit TW.

Well, to be blunt about it, they have got to piss or get off the pot. Being genuinely supportive of women's rights and endorsing the TA agenda are mutually exclusive. They have to decide which side of the fence they are sitting and declare. You cannot be on both sides simultaneously.

MNHQ have asked that posters use the pronouns of choice to each other and about celebrities.

Otherwise, I don't think they've taken a "philosophical" position.

Well, if they haven't, I think they should.

Watcher, that's quite harsh when many women are very careful what they say where. Don't forget Justine has already had armed police on her doorstep during jeff gate.

I know. Sorry . I know individuals' well-being is at stake here and that Justine has had to content with some terrifying and horrifying things.

I think I've just reached my limit with all this stuff. I went to sleep last night genuinely scared for DD (aged 5) and the world she will have to navigate as a girl and then a woman. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of being 'nice'. I'm sick of being 'moderate'. I'm sick of being 'accommodating'. And I'm sick of tip toeing round so feelings aren't hurt. I just want everyone to call a spade a fucking spade and be done with it. I remember some of the deleted posts were where posters dared to suggest that a penis, by definition and biological necessity, could only be male. That was deemed offensive and delete-worthy. Sorry, but that's insane.

contend. not content

Everyone is entitled to live their lives in whatever way makes them happy - until this begins to be harmful to others.

This ^ x 1,000,000

Being genuinely supportive of women's rights and endorsing the TA agenda are mutually exclusive. They have to decide which side of the fence they are sitting and declare. You cannot be on both sides simultaneously.

I do have some sympathy with MN. As we all know trans-activists have a lot of support, and followers. This cannot be an easy decision for MN to make. I hope that by now, though, they understand that we have nothing against trans-women, it's just that they are not women, and as such there are many sex-specific places where it is not appropriate for a trans-women to be.

Completely agree with the OP

Watcher

You're right Watcher. It's crap

TheWatchersCouncil
I agree that MN should get behind this. I think it is even more pressing that they get behind keeping men out of women's protected spaces,

I agree with this including women's prisons

including keeping Tara Hudson in a male prison.

But I don't think that she should be in a male prison as she wouldn't be safe. (just to repeat I don't think that she should be in a female prison either).

that is where things get complicated.