(TW SA) New support thread …

[PinkPoetAgain1]

Another thread full, still learning that things are not normal as I thought they were .

www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5522581-tw-sa-new-therapist-new-thread

thank you everyone for being so patient and supportive ❤️

Indeed. Reposting this section of @faial 's post at the end of the last thread as maybe helpful for Poet to think about and could have been missed with the new thread -

"I would say I’m indifferent as this particular part has always happened if I’ve turned him down."
The second part doesn't really follow from the first. You were asked how you feel about it, not how long it's been going on. I appreciate that it is probably very difficult to answer how you feel, because you have grown up centring his sexual wants rather than discovering your own.

I was an abuse victim for decades in my marriage too and my BS radar isnt even that high either

I still stay temporarily for financial reasons and children, but separate bedrooms, and separate everything really. And bid my time. MN advises to make the break full and leave the family home - and I will, I will when the time is right

But I hope OP at least gets to this stage because I only got to this stage about 5 years ago or so, and the first decade was the worst as I thought I was in love with my abuser and the level of codependency was through the roof

You still love him OP because you have not had a minute to reevaluate your own feelings in the past 10 years with one then two then three then four little ones running around, he has kept you too busy to think - if you can somehow get that time and space - the clarity will come.

Thanks for the new thread Poet I like many people think of you through the day and really can see the huge steps you’re taking.

I would like to repeat a question that’s got left on the old thread though if you don’t mind?

Do you think you would ever hold your ‘no’ boundary no matter what happens?

Or will your ‘no’ forever be turned into a yes so that you can pretend he’s not raping you?

I would say I’m indifferent as this particular part has always happened if I’ve turned him down. Out of everything I’ve ‘discovered’ this is actually the most shocking to me that this is not an everyday part of normal relationships.

This is not indifference, its disassociation.

You have cut yourself so far off from your feelings that you dont even know what you feel. Its your mind's safety mechanism in the face of extreme trauma. I am sad that you are so confused that you cannot see the wood for the trees, and so caught up in his wants and feelings that you dont even consider or know your own anymore. Its very usual in trauma / abuse sufferers and it can be recovered from. But it would need you to be removed from the situation.

Seriously Im devastated for you, that he has taken a normal healthy young girl, who had something awful happen to her, which has happened to a great many of us when we have been young, and used that to control, manipulate and dominate and crush her spirit. Its fucking criminal, it both a metaphorical and legal case. That you have been denied love - real actual, genuine love, and true intimacy by this rape crazed animal, well its heartbreaking.

But I think that you are beginning to see it, and there will be a moment when you truly do, and then you really absolutely wont love him ever again, his weasel words and empty promises will mean nothing and hopefully you will be far far away from him. I am wishing you the ick. You cant come back from the ick. Im hoping that you can see his behaviour is worse than a dog in the gutter, wanking and showing himself up for the disgusting pervert that he is.

Sorry, I know Im usually the voice of reason, but there is something about the thought of him being unable to keep his filthy hands out of his pants each night which has really turned my stomach. I mean what the fuck is the matter with him, isnt he ashamed of letting himself get worked up into a frenzy like this, he's not even a man to be driven by his cock like that. Theres something seriously seriously wrtong with him.

Please be safe tonight Pink, whatever you decide to do. He will want to rape you ASAP because he will need time to smooth things over before your therapy on Monday x

We’d never be board or sick of you poet.
We are all here because we want to support you all the way through 💜

stay strong tonight! Rock solid xx

Agree with Nettletea, it's making me want vomit thinking of how gross and vile he is.

I feel your rage @NettleTea This man is seriously warped. Poet deserves so much better than this. I hope one day soon she comes to that realisation.

This is spot on. I feel the same. He’s so disgusting, he’s a sexual deviant. Such a vile, dangerous man.

I imagine this is hard for Pink to hear, although I think she’s come so far already from the time she was insisting to us that he’s not a pervert.

I was looking back at an older thread for what you said about his experiences before you @PinkPoetAgain1. You have mentioned more recently that he was a player, for want of a better word, but you’ve also said there was a long term GF:

”He had a long term girlfriend before me. She was his age. He told me that she was very volatile and they had big fights. Apparently she would get physical with him on occasion . He always said I never did, I would punch the wall instead. I had no reason not to believe this. I didn’t give it much thought at the time.”

I’m not sure there’s a safe way for you to make contact with her, for her perspective (that would be interesting) but what he told you is enough. Look between the lines. You wouldn’t even speak in a stern tone to him out of fear but she would attack him physically? Her volatility and outright violence were his excuses for punching walls back then - so what’s his excuse for that kind of behaviour in your relationship, with a wife who wouldn’t say boo to a goose?!

I think he abused that GF and told you a half-true version of it. She may well have been reactive to him which makes it easier for him to spin it that way, but he was a violent abuser before you had the misfortune of meeting him I think.

Ending the ban won't be a relapse of any kind. This is an iterative process when you discover something that is not normal and apply that newfound discernment to other situations, which opens up your perception even more. It's not like there's a light bulb moment where everything's different all of a sudden, but it's also irreversible. You won't be able to unsee what makes being with him traumatizing because you want to heal.

He really is mentally unwell to be able to do this, but do not spend too much time trying to figure out why he's doing it, like a commenter said the focus should be on yourself simply because you know that energy won't be wasted. And he will lash out to the suggestion he should seek help anyway.

You're in the early stages to even realize you are entitled to feeling. It's why he won't let you catch a break so that you can't start acting rather than reacting to him.

Im sorry Poet if my post was a bit harsh. I just worry about you and feel so sad that you havent had the life you deserve, that everybody deserves, to this point.

I think an important thing for Poet to hold in her mind, aside from the outright abuse, is this, perhaps less confronting, aspect:

• He doesn't actually respect her feelings and desires as a person
• He consistently centres his wants over her expressed needs

Even without the abuse, this would be unacceptable and unhealthy in a relationship. Poet should be with someone who respects her, values her feelings, and treats her as an equal – and he doesn't.

You can see this behaviour in the way that he pays lip-service to feeling bad about the trauma he's caused, but then acts in a way that treats her feelings and boundaries as obstacles he needs to overcome or find his way around, in order to get the sexual gratification he wants from her. Her experiences and feelings as a person are just hurdles in his way; how she feels doesn't matter to him.

There's no love there on his part at all, in the way he treats Poet. That's not how you treat a person you love. Or even a person you like. I hope holding that in your mind, Poet, might help you stop feeling so much sympathy for him when it gets to the point in the cycle that he cries crocodile tears to elicit pity.

(In addition, I absolutely think PP is correct, and he's had physically abusive relationships before – him telling Poet about that past relationship was him getting his 'story' in and blaming the ex gf, just in case Poet ever learnt about it.)

of all the things you’ve posted I am really quite alarmed by the masterbation in front of you / on top of you. You say it has happened more times than you can count. Could you try and explain how that scenario goes? Is it he initiates sex, you say no, he immediately starts masterbating?

when you say he can’t finish himself so inevitably forces sex with you so that he can finish, can you try and remember how that happens? Does he say anything (e.g “I’m not going to be able to come, can we have sex”) or are no words exchanged?

when he climbs on top of you doing it, are you saying anything? Is he?

just trying to figure out the steps that lead to this behaviour

I can try and answer this but I find it difficult and uncomfortable to write it out.

maybe it will be cathartic in a way after keeping all this to myself for so long

It will usually go something like this:
He tries to instigate sex in bed by kissing/touching me. If I say no thank you , which I don’t always, he will stop for a minute. Maybe roll over and ‘try’ to sleep , huffing and puffing, a bit of tossing and turning. He will usually muttering something like ‘fuck sake, I can’t sleep, you’re too sexy/im too horny’ and start wanking next to me. He will usually put his hand on me on my chest while he’s doing this.

as this goes on he will usually get closer, sometimes roll on top of me . He doesn’t say anything. Then he will usually try to move my hand to take over or start saying ‘please I just want to finish inside you, it’s not the same without you, i need you , I’ll be quick etc etc’

A handful times he goes ahead without asking verbally , I think he takes my lack of no as a yes. There has only ever been one occasion he has continued despite my no.

It’s not often I say no because I just want it done but if I do he will usually stop and strop that it doesn’t work without me. Or sometimes he finishes on me so then I have to get up and have a shower anyway instead of sleeping. Which does annoy me.

Sorry that’s a bit graphic

Poet, this is not normal. This is degrading, abusive and illegal. This is all sexual violence. It’s highly, highly disturbing to read this, let alone know that this not only happens to you regularly but that you didn’t even know it wasn’t ok until yesterday.

The whole scenario is chilling, but the last paragraph about him finishing on you and you have to get up to shower, really does show what he thinks of you. That you thought that any of that was in any way part of a loving relationship just breaks my heart. He is degrading you, sexually assaulting you, raping you, sexually coercing you and being sexually violent to you all in just that one scenario. Those are not the actions of someone that likes you.

Im sorry that must be hard to hear.

@FMc208 its so hard to hear. But I appreciate the honesty

It’s really hard to be told that nothing about your sex life/relationship in general is normal at all .

I feel like I’ve been living in a made up world

im heartbroken and trying to cling to any bit of hope . It’s so stupid

Last night wasn’t great but wasn’t the worst thing he could have done
and it’s confusing because I feel like his actions are showing me that he is starting to take more care to pay attention and take my no seriously . But also I feel like he shouldn’t have started anything in the first place?

He tried it on as predicted despite the ‘break’. Started as a hug and he said night night, I was almost asleep and I could feel him behind me . He started to touch me, I moved his hand to hold it still, he moved my hand onto him, I moved it back. He then wrapped his leg around my legs so I couldn’t move and moved them apart and started using his fingers inside. It happened really quickly and I completely tensed up my whole body and it was so triggering because I was basically waiting for him to do it again like before. But he must have sensed it because he said ‘do you want me to stop?’ And I nodded. He stopped and apologised straight away. He then went to sleep on the sofa . He said sex is like a drug to him and taking a break is like trying to quit .

if he really didn’t care he would have just gone ahead wouldn’t he?

This is one of the worst assaults he has done to you because he has repeatedly ignored your boundaries (moving your hands back multiple times) but he has escalated to pinning you with his legs so you can’t move while he sexually assaults you with his fingers. He is escalating, he is now using physical force while he sexually assaults you.

The fact that he got up and appeared to ‘respect’ when you said no is irrelevant, it’s all a power play on his behalf because he had already violated, physically assaulted and sexually assaulted you by this point. What he is doing by appearing to respect your no after doing that, is to make you question that what he had already done can’t be that bad because he didn’t rape you. And it’s worked hasn’t it?

Poet this man is dangerous and he is escalating his abuse. I’m wondering now that he has used physical force to pin you down if you can accept that he has crossed yet another line? It’s one thing to sexually assault or rape you when you feel you’ve got control of your body (which you don’t by the way) but it’s quite another for him to wrap his legs around you, force your legs open and penetrate you with his fingers when you are unable to move.

I am sorry if the below is blunt, but I feel it needs to be said.

The worry is that one day he will go too far with the physical abuse and unintentionally kill you. It only takes one pressure point on the neck for you to lose consciousness.

Shit it’s worrying you think this is the worst because I actually came away from that, although a bit triggered , feeling like it was a positive step because he was seeming to pick up on my cues that I didn’t want to continue

I don’t even know which way is up clearly
but thank you for being honest again

I didn’t like the way he pinned my legs down I did find that scary and intimidating

“it’s confusing because I feel like his actions are showing me that he is starting to take more care to pay attention and take my no seriously”

Not sure what I expected to follow this but trying it on despite your communicated boundary, sexually assaulting you by penetration, physically restraining you (reminding you he can overpower you) and then a performative removal to the sofa would not be it.

He’s not shown any consideration to your feelings, he has violated your boundaries, violated your body, and reminded you in every possible way that HE determines when sex happens. You are free from further intrusion that night because he in his largesse has bestowed it - not before assaulting you and putting in your head that he can and will pin you down if he wants to, mind you.

So no. I see no evidence of him caring about you and what you want at all, just a variation of his cat and mouse power game tbh.

if he really didn’t care he would have just gone ahead wouldn’t he?

This is not logical thinking. If he really cared he would have not touched you at all. I have been married for nearly 10 years and, without wishing to out myself or make this all about me, I have some medical problems that interfere with intimacy. The number of times that my husband has so much as looked at me, much less touched me, when I wasn't willing or able? ZERO. And please don't take this as me saying that my husband has gone above and beyond, because what I'm describing is the bare minimum. And if he were awake I'd ask him and he'd say the same: it's what every man should do.

As others have said, he gets off on knowing that you don't consent. In this case he'd already done something to you that he knew full well you weren't consenting to, so he'd got his thrill. He'd exercised his power over you. He didn't need to go ahead and use his penis because he knew that if he'd wanted to he could have. He's probably deliberately varying what he's doing to you each time in order to increase your confusion. It's all having the same effect on him though, it's all about power and control.

He was doing the opposite of picking up on cues. He ignored your words and your actions and carried out a sexual assault he knew all along you were not consenting to.

Stopping, on this occasion, was designed to manipulate you and make sure you never know how bad things might get on any occasion.

He is terrorising you. You’re living with a terrorist.

I could cry Poet. Last night was a serious sexual assault and he has brainwashed and manipulated you so much for so long that instead of understanding he violently sexually assaulted you (using his legs to stop you moving, prising your legs apart and penetrating you with his fingers) you believed it was progress as he didn’t rape you with his penis.

What happened to you last night is so serious that it’s a crime. So serious that someone could get a custodial sentence for it. I know you’re not ready to even remotely consider the police, so the only reason I’m sharing that is to try to explain how serious this sexual assault was.

He didn’t rape you because he got what he needed from the situation - the dominance of complete physical control of you and access to your vagina against your will. I’m sorry that’s blunt but that’s what he wanted. You need to start trying to understand that this isn’t about sex at the very core of it, it’s about power, control and dominance.

I’m so sorry you’re living with someone terrorising you. That is what is happening.

@YourOliveBalonz has hit the nail on the head. There's both text and subtext to his actions that I think are entirely deliberate.

The clear subtext to what he did tonight was: I will override your boundaries. I can do whatever I want to you. I can and will physically overpower you and sexually violate you, and you can't stop me. You're helpless. You should be grateful that, after I sexually violated you with my fingers to prove a point, I decided to stop, because I didn't have to.

The text was: Gosh, I just can't help myself because you're so sexy, and sex is like a drug to me. But I'm so kind and loving that I managed to stop myself and respect your wishes after a brief internal struggle, and now I'll go banish myself to the sofa, because if I remain near you, I won't be able to help myself trying to do it again – it's like an addiction! Feel sorry for me!!

He's trying to look like the noble martyr, trying desperately to do the right thing and overcome his irresistible urges, who deserves your sympathy. Really though, if he was that addicted and so unable to control himself, then he should be going to sex addict therapy, as it's a serious problem that's making him rape his wife. Of course, I'm pretty sure he's not a sex addict, just a garden variety abuser and rapist, given all his other abusive behaviours.