(TW SA) New support thread …

[PinkPoetAgain1]

Another thread full, still learning that things are not normal as I thought they were .

www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5522581-tw-sa-new-therapist-new-thread

thank you everyone for being so patient and supportive ❤️

Lets play devils advocate for a moment and imagine that he is genuine in the nice moments.
Time has proven that he is only nice when things are going his way, or when he is in a role that makes him feel good about himself because he is the centre of attention.
Its real easy to be nice when everything is going along swimmingly and there is nothing that annoys you - and makes you feel like other people are more important than you. This is fundamental to his character. Beyond the Game, he is someone who feels as if the world should centre him. Its that belief, deep down, that allows him to consider The Game as a manual for 'success' rather than an abhorrent rape manual.

And the problem is that life doesnt always go to plan, and you cant always be the centre of attention. And if you are someone who believes that they deserve that, you cant help but pull everything back around to you - even yesterday - YOU were having the terrors, but it was all about how bad it made HIM feel, and how he wanted a clean start so he could encourage you to move on from those feelings that affected HIM. That shows that its not really about your feelings and well being, its about how your feelings affect him.

And you see how he gets if things dont run to his tune. If there is noise, and mess. He flies off the handle, he cant control his emotions. And if its not about him, he sulks, or makes arguments to ruin things for whoever it is about, because he cant bear for anyone else to be the star. How is that going to work out with the kids? With big events in their lives, or even small ones. Will they need to shrink so as to not outshine him, or will their successes always be seen as a reflection on him, and how proud HE is. Ive seen this so much - usually men, who want all the congratulations and 'you must be so proud' while the child who achieved it is ignored or just rolled out as a trophy.

I think what Im trying to say is that his basic character is entitled and self serving. That is, deep deep down, so woven into his being and feelings of worth, into his beliefs, that he is not capable of taking the good with the bad, with surviving lives ups and downs and acting as part of a family unit, with the give and take of allowing each member to flourish. So even if, in the moment, he genuinely believed he could change and be different, he would really really struggle and find it far too difficult to do so in practice.

As Lundy says, this is work that would take decades to unpick, its hard deep soul searching work, its facing the dark elements work, its looking yourself in the face and seeing the truth work, and then fundamentally unpicking everything you have known and believed since childhood about yourself and the world, and rebuilding from scratch type work, and its no wonder that very very few men are either capable or willing to do that. Plus Lundy stresses that this work should be done away from the person he has abused, with absolutely no expectation that the relationship would ever reestablish.

So if he were genuine about change, and if YOU wanted him to change for himself, it wouldnt be while you were together. It would be kinder to leave and give him space to do that work and for you both to move on.

But I dont think thats what he is saying, honestly, is it. He wants the status quo. He wants you to forget about the past and move on. He wants to be able to pop to a counsellor and ask how to stop you going on about it all, if that, and maybe a couple of CBT type relaxation techniques to maybe hold his temper a bit. Minimal effort maximum result for him.

As I say, I expect he will try REALLY HARD (ie deliberately choose to hold off) for a week or so. Enough to try to convince you that everything is fixed now and that you dont need the therapy anymore - after all it seems to be making you worse, doesnt it - he;'s NEVER seen you like the other night, it really frightened him, and he has so much concern and care for you, he hates to see you like that and cant bear to think of how awful it all is for you. Why stir things up, after all he told you right back when it happened when you were at college to let it go, that its best to move on and recover rather than stirring up all this horrible stuff. He just wants to care and protect you. You are so vulnerable, he is scared that you will break, and then what will happen to the poor children when you dfo that to yourself.........

@PinkPoetAgain1 it might be helpful to read this and really take it in.

Even when you were having days out with friends he was verbally humiliating you with crude jokes about your sex life, the day after raping you. When you had a big family event he was exploding at you and the kids before being all smiles in front of company. Even through the "nice" parts you are walking on eggshells.

NettleTea is very wise and spookily accurate, I bet.

The ‘good parts’ are just a facade to keep you trapped in the cycle of abuse x

How can I get past the notion that this time will be different if I just give him another chance?

1. Because he's told you over 500 times that he's sorry. He's told you many times through the lifetimes of these threads to 'give him another chance'. He has never kept his word. Statistically his chance of keeping his word is less than 0.2% based on past behaviour. You've got more chance of being killed in a car accident, than him changing.

2. he had been sexually abusing and raping you through your entire relationship, obviously when you have been at your most vulnerable. Things you describe as happening 'pretty much every day' that are sexual assaults amount to several thousand times over the course of your relationship. Your entire relationship is founded on him being a sexual abuser manipulating and controlling you from being a teenager.

3. this is how seriously he's taken his 'sorry's' - when within the course of just a few days he'd (a) broken down telling you how you deserved better, how he'd change (b) raped you in your sleep and then denied it (c) mocked you saying no and then disregarded it, (f) broken down telling you how you deserved better, how he'd change (g) raped you again.

4. your body is in a constant state of alert, you are having PTSD induced nightmares and have no idea if they stay because he's sexually assaulting you in your sleep, because it's so common for him to do so.

5. he has not once on here given you a break from sex when you requested it. He continued to sexually harass and assault you daily throughout.

6. if he didn't respect your bodily autonomy in the few days/weeks after childbirth, then what makes you think he will now?

7. the good times you mention seem more like relief than truly good times to me.

8. I'm not sure you can ever truly let your guard down with him, your brain is always in alert mode because it senses the danger.

If you stay, there's little point in thinking he'll change. Staying is with the full knowledge that he will continue to rape you for the rest of your life, or at least for as long as he is able to. Your migraines will continue for life. The nightmares will continue. Your trauma will grow. How good would those 'good' times have to be to prefer to be with someone that doesn't love it respect you, who is willing to see you suffer like that. I'm not getting that sense of joy and happiness in your relationship at any time tbh.

“How can I get past the notion that this time will be different if I just give him another chance?”

This part is easy: you are giving him all the chances by staying (you don’t need to take action to give him a chance), and getting past the notion that things can be different will happen when he shows you that it’s not going to be any different.

I guess the real question is, even though you want to believe he really gets it now and is going to change, when his behaviour soon shows you that nothing is going to change, do you still hold out that hope or do you accept the reality that it’s never going to? Do you keep telling yourself the reason he continues to financially, emotionally, and sexually abuse you is because despite numerous conversations about how this affects you, you telling him about physical pain, now having night terrors that he witnesses, that all of that is still not quite enough for him to get it?

I was also thinking, you mention how good the good times are, that's not seen any good times in your relationship in the last few months that you've been posting. There's usual domestic life, and sometime with things have been quite calm, but I've seen no real happiness or joy with each other. The only time he seems to love if you with love is either after raping you or just before your counselling appointment. There have been times when you've said 'oh it's been good the last few days', within that time frame he is actually assaulted you and you've posted about how he's grumpy and you're walking on eggshells!

Because you got into a relationship so young, and this abusive relationship is all you've known, perhaps you don't realise how happy a relationship truly can be, and how far yours is from this. Him being involved with the kids and not leaving his pants on the floor, doesn't mean he's a good husband. We deserve a much higher bar than that.

Yes, are the good times also a bit internalised would you say? As in, it’s about the rush of love that you feel (or what feels like love) when your handsome, charismatic husband is on good form and smiles at you in a way that tells you everything is good with him? Basically the bare minimum of him being pleasant that you would 100% take for granted if he wasn’t also a controlling rapist who’s trapped you in a situation where you can’t even buy a cheap burner phone without him knowing about it?

A reminder of the abuse cycle.

How can I get past the notion that this time will be different if I just give him another chance?

It depends what the ground rules are going forward.

From the list I posted yesterday, which. if any, of the following has he promised to change.

Has he promised not to touch you in your sleep
Has he promised not to pester you for sex
Has he promised not to force you to masturbate him
Has he promised not to masturbate in your presence
Has he promised to ask for consent before he initiates anything
Has he promised to check with you during sex that you are still consenting
Has he promised to leave you alone for a week if you ask him to

And I would add, has he promised to accept that no means no.

Poet, think about what it would take from you to make the good times last forever:

• You ‘consent’ to daily sexual activity because you can’t say no or the good times end
• You never ask about access to finances, because that will make the good times end
• You stifle the children’s natural behaviour, because if they are loud or messy, he’ll get angry and the good times will end

That’s not the half of it either.

As we’re all saying, the question is really how many more bad times can you endure before you finally have the strength to escape.

Not even just that, you never show any physical or emotional symptoms, even subconciously, from the ongoing trauma of the rapes.

So no night terrors, no migraines, no tears, no bruising, no UTIs or he will punish you.

OP is drowning. The good times are when he pulls her up for air. He saves her, she is grateful and then he pushes her under again.

It absolutely beggars belief. There is no way that OP can honestly believe that this marriage is worth all this trauma. You can avoid reality but you can’t avoid the consequences of reality.

I heard/read somewhere something that I found quite powerful. It basically said that if you stay with an abuser when you have children then your children are extremely likely to either grow to become abusive themselves or to be the victim of abuser.

This is because as parents we are role modelling acceptable behaviour to our children.

Maybe it might help to think in terms of whether you would be happy for your DC to be either you or your DH in this relationship when they grow up. Maybe that would help give you strength and see more clearly the impact?

Please don’t fall into the trap of thinking that they won’t be aware. They will be. Your DH’s behaviour to them is already impacting them.

I'm sure someone has suggested it before, but how about writing down all the pros and cons of staying with him on a piece of paper that can be safely hidden away?

I'd bet the good can be found in any loving relationship where it is simply good and not part of a traumabond dynamic.

The problem with him is that your relationship has moved past the good and bad framework now, it doesn't apply anymore because the "good parts" have become part of the problem now - they ensure you stay and keep getting subjected to the bad parts, and I'm very sorry to say he probably knows this, which means they are also offered with ulterior motives.

Good parts in a good relationship are purely good, whereas in your situation, they may still feel good but they come with conditions - that you behave while he can do what he wants, including terrible things to you.

In a healthy relationship with a loving, respectful and stable partner, the list of pros will be so much longer than the cons, and the cons won't be anything close to "he raped me".

It really works, to see it all written out. As I said though, you've probably done this before anyway, but maybe an update would be useful after so much has happened and how much work you've done.

Unfortunately OP does not/will not believe that any of this has an impact on the children. It’s all been said before on previous threads but because he has never physically hit one of them, she doesn’t think they are being abused.

I agree with you, and I agree that it's harmful for the kids. But perhaps we can stay clear of this topic because in this part of the cycle of abuse, poetry really struggles with this to the extent she's nearly left the threads in the past. It doesn't go in anyway, and if we drive poet away she loses some of the some of the support she has.

Even the 'good' parts in OP's marriage are stressful for her. When he reluctantly agreed to a sex break (which lasted less than 72 hours) OP was a ball of anxiety trying to anticipate what he would do and ended up being physically forced into a sex act against her will.

The reality is that there are no good parts. There are just 'less bad' parts that leave OP highly strung out and a mess of anxiety.

What OP refers to as the good parts are those occasions when she consents to sex she doesn't really want to relieve the pressure cooker she is living in.

That's it. It's grim, it's awful but until OP realises that, it's her life.

As has been said, your idea of good is very, very unhealthily delusional. It seems to correspond to "a period of slightly less bad abuse" rather than anything genuinely good. But I don't think you're able to recognise this even when you're in the "scared shitless of him" bit of the cycle.

I don't know how you get past continuing to believe in him. For most people his promises of a fresh start countless times and then nothing changing, and the other overwhelming evidence, would do the trick, but it's seemingly not shaken your belief yet which suggests something strong may be blocking you here. Maybe explore in counselling whether you really do believe he will change or whether it's actually a desperate hope/want for him to change mixed with helplessness, dependency and avoidance of having to accept he won't (because this acceptance might mean you have to seriously think about leaving).

Yes, I know, I’ve watched it all play out over the previous threads. I was just replying to the previous poster about why encouraging OP to think about the impact on the children is not going to work at this point.

Unfortunately at this stage in the abuse cycle, NOTHING anyone is saying to her is going in, never mind specifically about the children.

Unless she faces reality, through whatever processes needed, she will be stuck there in inertia.

@PinkPoetAgain1

How can I get past the notion that this time will be different if I just give him another chance?

You get past it by just getting past it and taking the action you need to take. It's a leap of faith and believing in the truth you are seeing right before your eyes, even if your 'little voice' is telling you something different.

Sadly, the 'truth fairy' never comes down and bonks you on the head with a magic wand. There may be a moment when you have a sudden flash of wisdom but that usually comes in a moment of actual crisis when it's 'fight or flight', rather than at a time of peaceful contemplation. This is why it's important to have an 'exit plan' so you can leave when that moment hits rather than having to wait, which allows the doubts to sneak in.

You're at the point where you know that what he does is criminal. You know that the right thing to do is leave. It's not going to get better and it may get a whole lot worse. So you'll just have to make that leap of faith and break those chains.

I watched the MAFS Panorama programme. The descriptions from the women were just as Poet has described.

Poet - upthread you referred to them as “those poor women” but you have experienced far more dangerous behaviour. Yours has gone on for 15 years with domestic violence, coercive and controlling behaviour. Why don’t you see this and why do you think you deserve this treatment?

We all know you’ll give him another chance. But crucially, there is no starting again, you cannot erase this and he will not change.

There must be so many triggers for you on a daily basis. I’m not sure how your subconscious can cope. The BBC news headlines and tv dramas have me thinking of you (Believe Me on ITV he was a “lovely man”). The MAFS programme reminded me of you. It’s everywhere and you can’t keep up the facade. It worries me that you’ll get mentally/physically ill which will give him more power over the children if you are unable to function. If/when this happens nobody in your family will know what’s been happening to you. He has isolated you so his friends are your friends.

You are a young woman with hopefully 50+ years of life left. Don’t waste any more time on him. Take control of your future, engage with WA and get out of this marriage. Your life will be so much better.

Give him another chance, but start properly planning with WA so that when he begins again, you are prepared.

I honestly don't know what giving him another chance looks like to Poet. Does it mean not talking about her trauma? What does starting over mean in her day to day life, that's what I can't get my head around.