(TW SA) New support thread …

[PinkPoetAgain1]

Another thread full, still learning that things are not normal as I thought they were .

www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5522581-tw-sa-new-therapist-new-thread

thank you everyone for being so patient and supportive ❤️

Absolutely. How many times has he snivelled and cried, trying to make Poet feel bad for him, claiming that he understands now! He didn't realise before, but now he knows how he's been harming her! He feels terrible, and he'll change and do better!

....And then he manages a few days without abuse, before going back to his old ways. It's the same thing, over and over. He's never going to change.

Poet this is his pattern.

He uses big emotional conversations to trigger your ‘he’s not that bad’ response which always, ALWAYS leads to sex.

He means NONE of it.

He just wants sex.

Yes, I think that question is to both see the reaction to it and also to establish a narrative ‘‘of course I’m not that’. Even if you exclude all of the coercion in your relationship, the times you have woken up to him raping you make him a 100% clear-cut, nothing to hide behind rapist.

Mind you his sexual assaults and certainly anal rape at least pre-date your marriage, so if he’s somehow managed to miss that rape is still rape in a marriage (he hasn’t) I wonder what legal protections he thought were in place for him then.

Can I ask just to try to grasp this, is he old? Is he physically attractive? What race is he?

I will try to put it this way,

if your children had been being abused by him god forbid, would you feel reassured just because he left them alone for one night that he would not do it
again?? Of course not. You are living with a high level sex offender

I was going to say the apology seems to be its own pattern and im sure in the past its then shortly been followed by why does the therapy need to continue and having a strop about why things are being dragged out.

Without all the threads to look back on I cant be sure but Im sure this has also happened a couple times.

Yes this is definitely the case. One that sticks in my mind was when there were also signs of this having an impact on Pink Poet’s physical and mental health. She was off work sick, said her migraines were bad and she was struggling mentally. His reaction was annoyance, saying that she can’t punish him forever and needs to move past it.

Even if (highly unlikely) he didn't think it was criminal to rape your wife, why would he want to rape anyone anyway? He knows you weren't consenting. Even if he bizarrely thought it was legal, doesn't morality come into it? Shared pleasure, your enjoyment?

He's definitely been doing it before, with all his tactics from The Game to you and other women he wasn't married to.

I told him I’ve been having nightmares often and he was sad. He asked if he could be given another chance to start again and he will change his behaviour and seek help.

This is just another cycle. He pushes you until you crack. You tell him that his sexual assaults on you are making you ill. He acts surprised, aghast and oh so sad. He promises to change his behaviour.

Then, a few days later he starts assaulting you again.

These are some of your past posts.

we spoke about this and he has promised this won’t happen anymore

He was devastated and is being very lovely and caring now. I know he is trying to make things better

He has promised to be more aware and sensitive in the future

He has promised it will never happen again and I am choosing to trust him at this time

And despite him continuing to sexually assault you almost every day, you are still believing his lies that he will change his behaviour.

Maybe he didn’t realise how serious it is until now

You are both in this pattern. You said that your therapist had concerns over his patterns of behaviour.

I think you should tell her of this pattern as well. How you explain everything to him and he seems to you to be genuinely sorry, claims he didn't know and promises to change in the future but then goes back to the old behaviour, over and over and over again.

See if she can explore with you why you keep believing him when his behaviour is so habitual that even we can predict what he will do.

He’s said to me ‘you’re making me feel like some sort of rapist’

As others have noted, this is a manipulation tactic to prompt you to say, "of course not". It also puts zero responsibility on him - he is saying that YOU AND YOUR BEHAVIOUR are the problem (because he knows he should feel bad when you are upset that he sexually assaults you) rather than HIM AND HIS BEHAVIOUR being the problem (he feels like a rapist because he keeps committing rape).

He literally had to force your legs apart to access your vagina OP.

Thinking about it, asking you to give him another chance to start over again implies he believes you are considering leaving, it’s probably more what you would say if you had already left and he was trying to get you back? I question his motives here as it sounds like he feels you are considering leaving. Something to be aware of.

I think by starting over he means he won't do it again. 'It' being exactly what, we don't know.

Has he promised not to touch you in your sleep
Has he promised not to pester you for sex
Has he promised not to force you to masturbate him
Has he promised not to masturbate in your presence
Has he promised to ask for consent before he initiates anything
Has he promised to check with you during sex that you are still consenting
Has he promised to leave you alone for a week if you ask him to

What exactly is he committing to?

All we know is that he has said he will sleep on the sofa which he has done before as a big performance. And now all this, you make me sound like a rapist is another big woe is me performance.

@PinkPoetAgain1

So, he's supposedly been 'shocked into reality' and wants to start again? Right. And I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

If he's so sincere, tell him that 'starting again' means that he moves OUT and does not pressure you as you work through the trauma that he has caused. And that he seeks specific therapy for his sexually abusive behaviour. Not for 'sex addiction' but the same therapy that a rapist would receive. He needs to move out because you will never fully relax and be able to honestly work through this with your therapist whilst he is in the same house as you. Any progress you make is undone by you having to deal with his 'appetites' and your fears of them. Two steps forward, and in your case, two steps back. But what his absence would actually do is teach you what peace and freedom from fear truly feel like. And I have a feeling that when you accept and acknowledge those feelings his hold over you will be broken and you will never want him back.

Now, personally I don't believe he will ever change nor will he ever agree to move out. He is a rapist, he is a criminal. And he doesn't believe he's doing anything wrong. And he knows that once you're out of his constant grasp that you will realize that fully and run as fast and as far as you can.

He's saying that because it's easier for you to say backtrack and reassure him than say 'that's because you are a serial rapist and you've been repeatedly raping me for a decade'. He knows you can say that to him, so that's why he says this.

It's disgustingly obvious when you're looking in.
No man in the UK is unaware that rape is wrong. He just doesn't care. Remember, he's still been raping you when you told him unequivocally no. He's raped you in your sleep (even after you told him that was a no), and then lied to you about it.

He cares about saving his own skin and you not going to the police.

Btw, if he didn't realise that rape in marriage was illegal (seriously, please don't be this naive, I don't believe you actually believe this), then what was his excuse for raping you before you were married?

I don't know if it's helpful to try to hammer home points to the OP at this stage in the cycle, especially as this thread needs to be a safe place where she is listened to, believed and respected.

We know now that the cycle goes in stages, in this stage her husband is nice but unfortunately it doesn't last - that is when OP recognises the issues.

@PinkPoetAgain1, of course you have hope that he finally understands now and everything will be okay - I completely understand that. We're here for you, so feel free to keep writing and you will not be judged x

It's hard to know what's best.

I don't judge Poet at all, and I don't think any pp do - I think her perception of the situation is entirely normal, and I think she's reacting in the way many of us would, in her exact circumstances. But at the same time, not pointing out reality doesn't seem helpful - it feels like enabling the cycle to not highlight the repetitions in his behaviour, the past abuse, or the blind spots she has.

I would hope this thread can be a non-judgemental, supportive, but honest place for Poet, where she knows she'll always be listened to and encouraged, but will also always be reminded of the truth, even if sometimes it's not very pleasant.

But perhaps I'm wrong!

I think it’s something that Poet needs to unpack in therapy as she does think that in some respects he is a decent husband, good father, provider. Fun & good looking character. She also thinks that the children will be happier with their parents together.

It’s very difficult after all this time together. Trauma induced Stockholm syndrome, she’s not ready to leave and we need to respect that, even if we wish we could click our fingers and have her free.

Is there a possibility of twice weekly therapy Poet?

What would HE call a man who has sex with a heavily pregnant, non consenting woman from behind while she cries?

He is a rapist.

Therapy every day of the week won’t change the marriage though, and you can’t heal from trauma while you’re in it. As a PP said, it’s like trying to put a broken leg in plaster while it keeps getting broken. I think therapy will work wonders for her on the other side of this situation. Right now I think all it is really doing is giving her a little weekly break as he behaves himself in the run up to a session.

The producers didn’t say it didn’t count, they denied the allegations - saying that when it was reported to them the woman said it was consensual. They aren’t saying that because they believe it, they are saying it because they don’t want to get sued and lose their jobs.

I am not coming at this from a therapy background, so this might be a stupid idea - I'd appreciate input from people to knowledgeable on this please.

But what if Poet told her husband that the therapist had asked her to keep a private (not to be shared with him) diary, and share it with the therapist weekly. A diary of how they are getting on, whether he's been continuing to harass, abuse and rape her etc. Whether poet does or does in fact keep that diary is secondary. The husband behaves better when he knows therapy is coming up, and knowing his actions will be documented in between may help keep Poet safer. In reality these threads are the diary.

Do people think this is a good idea or just too dangerous/provocative?

I don't think OP has specifically told him that his current actions are causing her illness, I get the impression that she is saying it is still all about the rape when she was pregant.

No doubt OP will be able to give a little more information when he is not around. At the moment she has to be very careful with her phone use around him and no, I don't think she should tell him she's keeping tabs on him and making any sort of record because he won't take it well.

I believe that as Poet is waking up to this all, she is increasingly less able to tolerate the abuse. Just look at how she has been able to state her boundaries and also recognise what he is doing - ie the staying quiet and then asking him if anything happened, to test if he would be honest, the watching from inside herself as he forced her legs open, and the recognition that yes, he is a bastard.

There is a push pull between us and the therapist, and her husband tunring on the charm, or pulling out the emotional guilt trip to reel her in. As Otterly said (I think) he is an expert at those words and they seem to provide a cloud of warm fuzzy hopefullness over the truth that she knows for a while.

I suspect that as she starts to see the truth, she is also less able to cope with the abuse, which makes it harder day to day, so the pull of his mealy words is greater, in a way. But also I would suspect that her body is also on a higher alert. My suspicion is yes, he did start to touch her again, and her mind, fresh from the danger alert of the therapist, sent her into a panic. Especially if she was in a deep REM sleep - it could be really vivid - so waking up sweating and shaking to a nightmare is likely to be triggered by something. You say you regularly wake up quickly - Im not sure that is so normal. Ive been tracking my sleep as I have sleep apnoea and use a CPAP machine, and have been learning how to use it and how to adjust settings, etc. I wake up quickly if I have a series of events (where I dont breathe for 10 seconds or longer at a time, and my brain thinks Im dying) when Im not having events I cycle gently through different stages, up and down, and only briefly awake and asleep. Also the sleep bits of apple watches and wearables is not very accurate at all apparently.
If you are waking up rapidly there is usually something happening that makes you do so. A baby crying. You cant breathe. Something has disturbed you. My belief is that it is him. He needs you to be in a deep sleep, and you were not.

My bets are also on Poets husband actually holding out for a week or more. I think he knows that his chips could be fried, and he is going to pull it out of the bag to get things back to where he wants them. A week or so of trying SOOOOOO hard, look at him, poor boy, performatively taking himself to the sofa, and asking her how she is all the time, MIGHT be enough to get next weeks therapy cancelled and her to believe that everything is all good with them. How much love bombing will that take. I think next weeks session could be crunch time. Its all getting a bit real for him, and he risks losing what he has got here. If she carries on going then it could start to get nasty.(nastier) because he will start to panic.

I don’t understand what the point would be to be honest, it’s a toxic situation that she needs to get out of.

I totally agree she needs to leave. It's intolerable and staying will re traumatise her.

But he is slightly better when he knows his behaviour will be talked about, so how can Poet use that to improve her situation right now?