November 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

This is the latest thread, please feel free to write as much or as little as you please.

When I'm feeling more removed from the situation and braver I may post about my experiences and I'd rather wait because I dont want to drip feed and I'm worried I'll out myself. But I'm glad this thread exists and it's been really cathartic to read and its helped bring me some comfort even on the hard days.

@HoldingBackTheTide I’ve lurked on Stately Homes for a while and unfortunately your posts resonate with me- I’ve had 30 years of this - My narc MIL fave saying was a ‘daughter’s for life and a son until he gets a wife’ so obviously me and DH were scapegoats for many years.

I found all this particularly devastating when the DCs were under 10 because you feel surrounded by happy families who have lovely get togethers with cousins and sleepovers which makes you feel isolated, lonely and let’s face it, abnormal.

Over the years we have crawled out of the abyss by re-framing things mentally and taking practical steps.

DS had been at the same school as older golden cousins. A third of the mothers in the class sent me and DH to Coventry and the common denominator was they all knew narc SIL. We moved him to a different school in a different town.

We also got the DCs involved in sport and during their teens this provided a ‘family’ environment and we also met a lot of great people. Some parents have older children and are acquainted with narc SIL which made me feel uncomfortable but the reality is people are happy to talk to us and they’re focused on the here and now- not her. It was only an issue in my own mind and it’s never been a problem.

Stay off social media - don’t feed into the crazy. My DCs ended up on Facebook but I had access to their accounts so I was able to monitor. Also the kids seem to use Snapchat which isn’t often used by adults so there’s no family contact to worry about.

It’s OK to push back - their put downs are often the same old thing -think of a few witty put downs to use on them. Rehearse them before a family get together and use them or you could say to someone ‘that’s a really unkind thing to say’ whilst looking them straight in the eyes. It’s empowering and it shifts the power very subtly.

It’a also OK to get up and leave immediately if you don’t feel safe.

@Changename4 I'm so sorry that your stepmum is a vile psycho. It’s great you have a good relationship with your dad despite her. I think having a big conversation with your dad about her and being open about why you don't want her around could escalate. She would love nothing more than the drama, conflict and portraying you as the evil stepdaughter. Keep with the low contact method and keep your dad close. You don't need the stress. Off load here, so many people here with good advice. I've got from a very dark place with my mother in law to now being fully in control of the situation. It's been three hard years but counselling and talking here has helped so much. Big hugs.

@ReallyNeedingSleep welcome. This place has saved me and helped me and my partner immeasurably with our relationships with Toxic Mother In Law. KeeP talking, we are all here for you.

@Fluffygoon I hear you. The thing about sons until they get a wife is exactly my situation with my vile mother in law. Like you, it's been so hard but I've pushed through. Those tips are exactly it. Takes the development of strategies and self care to lessen the impact. But, God, it’s exhausting when every one of us on this page just want a simple non-toxic life! But good on us all for challenging it.

I feel like i’m WINNING.

Happy Christmas, Hag!

So, yesterday we had the call from The Hag, the toxic coercive narcissist mother in law, regarding Christmas which she has weaponsised for years to make everyone’s life hell. She doesn't have a good life (by choice) so why should anyone else?

The usual Christmas was traditionally at my mum’s. Lovely house, countryside, food, wine, excess. Xmas is important to us as my dad died at Xmas 14 years ago which was really traumatic.

Hag, over the years, has been invited for a couple of days. Over the years her behaviour has got more and more vile making everything related to Christmas overshadowed by her vast reservoirs of spite.

Last Xmas, the Hag was at mum’s for 48 hours and behaved so appallingly (screaming, manipulation, drama) that mum, Mr Monkey and I vowed never to have her there ever again.

My mum not given to bad mouthing anyone said to me ‘she’s trying to split you up.’

Hag, of course, hasn't seen in any way that her behaviour was disgusting, and has in her entitled way thought it's business as usual. Some days out in the country in a lovely place being waited on hand and foot, and maybe by bullying everyone and playing mind games I'll be staying until 2 January.

So we had the first phone call at 10am yesterday ‘what am I doing for Christmas?’ and some bollocks about she’ll have to let the Carers know she’s away. 🙄 she had phoned twice before then but Mr Monkey didn't answer his mobile and deliberately doesn't have voicemail on his phone.

Mr Monkey answered he'd ring her today (Sunday) with the plans.

This wasn't good enough as she phoned again three hours later as we’re heading out for lunch.

Putting the pressure on, clicking her fingers.

He calmly restates, I'll phone you on Sunday which is what I said this morning.

He phones her this morning with the new plan:

‘We’re doing Christmas lunch here’

There is absolute silence at the end of the line as she runs the calculations through her toxic head and realises that she's been wrong footed and there is no trip to the country and Hag B&B. But, of course, she won't countenance that the change in routine is due to her vile behaviour.

And at NO point in the explanations of arrangement is there a thank you from her.

She does some fantastic word salad about needing to cancel the Carers for a few days.

Mr Monkey: ‘there’s no need as it's just lunch here on Xmas Day at about 3’

‘I’ll cancel them just the same’

‘That’s your choice’

Hag honestly thinks she's going to bully her way to my mum’s for a some Hag R&R over Xmas.

She starts asking about New Year.

‘We don't make a big thing about it’

Hag knows full well that we’ll have been enconsed in days of a blur of fine wine at my mum’s by 31 Dec. Obvious that she would like to be there.

As I said to MM after Xmas Hell 2021, Hag will never cross that particular threshold ever again.

He's in complete agreement.

She then started the time honoured routine of ‘don’t buy me anything’, ‘fine, we won’t’ then spitefully as Hag hates my sister in law probably as much as me:

‘tell her not to get me anything’
‘tell her yourself’
‘no, you tell her’ trying to drag him into the toxic game.

Hag ‘i’ll be giving you and Monkey £400 for Christmas’

‘Lovely, thank you.’

When coercion, guilt, emotional blackmail doesn't work, she moves into bribery.

Then we get into ‘I've not no clothes’ - she honestly looks like a tramp - but MM no longer feels guilty about it ‘well, you need to go shopping then’ ‘you don't know what it’s like’

He doesn't engage.

There's some discussion about a repair to her lair and a medical appointment.

He rings off.

10 seconds later she rings back.

‘Why did you ring? What did we talk about?’ selective memory is another weapon.

‘Appointments and Christmas. I phoned you to invite you here for Christmas lunch’

Drum roll...

Really nasty voice

‘No, I - with a VERY imperious I - had to ring you yesterday to ask what was happening at Christmas’.

Mr Monkey just laughs and puts down the phone.

Hard as it is to deal with her utter toxicity, it is absolutely brilliant to know that I will only have to endure two to three hours of her bullshit on Xmas Day and that we have taken back CONTROL.

Just to clear re above I love my sister in law, Hag hates us both for taking away her sons.

@MonkeyfromManchester

I will have to have a talk with him but worried about his reaction.

I think my DS said she not talking to her eldest son my stepbrother. Maybe that's why she funny. Plus she doesn't get to see her grandkids but my dad sees us.

So literally why I feel vulnerable at the moment don't want her around me. I have been so anxious this entire pregnancy and last thing is her making me more anxious.

But my dad knows I am probably keeping her at a distance but yet he trying to force us together using he taking me out to buy something. In all honesty rather have peace than her comment, questions. I can't do it. My mental health more important.

I feel very on edge because I do feel my DF will stop talking to me over this. But feel the time I let it all out.

Something also happened with DS when he chose to drop something at my place off while I wasn't there. I believe she was behind his rant at me too. My DS room was a mess anyway got angry at me. But I think my stepmother and brother came in saw too. I had recently told him he won't do it I refuse too.
My DP, DS and I had gone out to my DP niece party. I had phoned up my DM and he rang her having a go at her.
Which I can get him moaning at the for he found my place. But told him he needed to apologize to my mother which he did. This is when I said people would love for us to fall out and then he was all being nice again.

Like I said yearly wiping the slate clean with her but she still continues.

Honestly don't know what to do no more.

Hello lovely people. I desperately need some advice about how to handle my mother. It's very hard to sum up the relationship, but it has never been good. Since I was a teenager it has been very toxic, I am the black sheep in the family. Prior to that I was neglected.

My mother has always been extremely passive aggressive with me, making barbed, snide comments, issuing put downs. She genuinely never seems happy for me, just jealous and critical. She will put on an act of being very interested, loving etc for short periods until the mask slips, but essentially she is only interested in herself.

Every so often she will accuse me of having no interest in her early life or her family. This is not true. It's just that for my entire life she has droned on and on and on about her childhood, how wonderful it was, how wonderful her family is, etc etc. She grew up abroad, and I didn't know her parents or her siblings really, as they were also both abroad. One of her siblings now lives in the UK but I don't know him and to be honest don't really like him either. She is absolutely obsessed with this brother, and treats him like a substitute husband. She was widowed 12 years ago. I understand this relationship is very important to her, but I have no interest in him and don't like him. They are also both involved in religion to a cultist extent, and this is the focus of both their lives. I was brought up in this religion and it did me enormous damage, so I don't want to hear about their activities in relation to it.

She has just phoned me (whilst I was lying in bed ill) , on the surface to ask how I am but quickly glossed over that, to get onto the real subject. How I don't appreciate my husband enough, I need to praise him and take an interest in him. This led onto a complaint about her graduation as a mature student. and how no one attended, something she brings up a lot. She makes it sound like my fault. I was living away from home at the time and din't even know about it. I thought 'here we go again'. 'i won't tell you what I've been doing as of course you have absolutely no interest in that', she says. I was annoyed at this point and started to argue back , but she talked over me. I asked for specific examples. She floundered, but then came back with the fact that I have no interest in her brother, and when she showed me the wedding album of a distant cousin I wasn't sufficiently interested. In fact I sat and looked through the book ,though I didn't know any of the people depicted or the bride apart from a brief meeting. She said, 'and I told x I'm afraid my daughter is not interested'. Just not true.

She was talking over me and using her hurt little girl voice. It just makes me want to cut her off once and for all. I just absolutely can't bear this again. There have been many instances of going NC, her rudeness, selfishness and spitefulness. I had been meaning to go and see her today as I feel guilty, but this has reminded me why I leave it so long.

If I speak to my siblings about it they think I'm being bitchy. They don't see that side of her. I feel I have nowhere to turn and no support. I'm just so angry with her. The fact is all her time and attention has gone into her religion and her fantasies about her 'family' who she hardly ever saw, not her own family. She was a neglectful, selfish mother.

I'm sorry, this is a bit of a rant but I wonder if anyone can relate?

Love reading your posts MonkeyfromManchester, love the way you word it too . Keep going . I actually think your gunna love your Christmas this year . And next year it will be the same Hagain 😂

@Changename4 I hear you re your step mum, but for the good of your mental health don’t have a big chat with your dad about it and why. It sounds like he’s the peacemaker trying to bring you together. And it will turn into a row. Just calmly say that at the moment you’re feeling very tired with the pregnancy and just need a quiet time with him. The last thing you need is a load of drama with her now or when you have a new baby. It will take away the joy. Keep talking here. I’ve found it so helpful. I use it like a counselling session and it’s good to support other people. I’ve found keeping a diary really helped as it helps me remember Hag’s behaviour is DREADFUL and I’m not making it up. I’m honest with friends and family about what a toxic bitch she is. Take care xxx

@Labourthepoint i certainly understand. Families have roles and it sounds like yours was the scapegoat and the place where she dumps her toxic shit. Your siblings won’t see it because of your role. It’s so difficult to communicate with people who don’t see it. You feel like you’re going mad and making it up. Your truth is your truth; it’s REAL. There’s very little point confronting her as thrives on the confrontation. Shut her down with ‘I’ve got to go’. Only answer the phone if you feel like it, develop some stock phrases ‘that was all in the past’, don’t rise to the bait. What you say about the brother being the substitute husband chimes with me, my toxic mother in law has turned her step son Slave Son into de facto husband. It’s vile and like your mum it’s borne of utter entitlement. Slave Son hasn’t had a relationship in 40 years!!!!

these people aren’t family, they are leeches.

So much of this thread resonates with me but I feel almost like I am betraying my DM by writing this post. Maybe I am over sensitive, I don’t know.

DM and DF separated when I was young. DF pretty useless provider and DM had to really struggle to raise us and for this I will always be thankful.

After age of 23 or so I had very little contact with DF - my choice but DM played a part and he died by suicide 10 years later.

At the time of breakup I was 12 and there was lots of alcohol involved and DM spent a lot of evenings or family events crying / getting very drunk, waking us up at night to sit on our beds and cry etc. It was hard.

Alcohol is still an issue with DM and all family events usually end up with her drunk and difficult. She seems pretty unhappy with the type of life she has and the children we are to her - all 40+. This is despite the fact that she has been brought to New York (twice!) Paris, Rome, Venice, Malaga (three times) Vienna, Lake Garda, DisneyParis , London (twice) etc. She has her own home but not a lot of income.
She provided (paid like a childminder) childcare to my DC and was a super granny but as they become teens and less all bout granny and more self absorbed she is now unhappy with them.

I am almost 50 , she’s 75 and just sick of every single event / get together being about her reaction and about what she feels and I feel guilty for that. Should I be ?

Labourthepoint

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and your assigned role in that is the scapegoat. I would read about narcissistic personality disorder in relation to your mother and see how much of that fits her description.
She has chosen to make you the scapegoat for all her inherent ills and additionally went onto further neglect you in childhood. None of this is your fault, that is all on her.

It is not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way either. Your siblings do not want to rock the boat with mother because they want to remain favoured and not cop the barbs that head constantly in your direction. Like practically all toxic parents your mother has not apologised nor has accepted any responsibility for her actions.

Is your father at all in your life now?. I ask only as he is not mentioned.

It is not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking and you do not owe her anything, let alone any sort of a relationship, now.

Guilt implies wrong doing, what exactly have you done wrong here?. Nothing. She feels no remorse nor guilt for how you have and continue to be treated.

I should add that we all live close by and she would see my DB once a week and my 2-3 times a week so she doesn’t want for company

Labourthepoint

Many apologises, I now see your father died some years back. What was your dad like?.

@Ydkiml thank you! It’s been really hard to get to this point being no contact and Mr Monkey being low contact. For someone who’s 85 she finds tremendous strength to be a bully.

felt exhausted yesterday after MM told her. I think it’s because it’s real now. I couldn’t sleep. She’s going to ramp up the shit about coming with us to my mum’s on Boxing Day. There is no way. I’m going to email my mum - she’s in Holland with my family - and confirm the plans and say please don’t be kind and invite her or be manipulated at tge table on Xmas day and invite her. I also think I’ll phone the Fucking Bitch if she keeps on this track (cos it’s going to run and run) and say she’s not coming. We’re spending time with MY family and that’s it. I may actually get MM to tell her - he can be dim sometimes and think the problem will go away, although I’m immensely proud of the progress he’s made in three years through counselling, my support and being LC with the hell hound. She may have a massive strop and decide she’s not coming to ours which was the case in 2020 when we were bubbling with the bitch and she kicked off. She spent Xmas alone. She used to spend Xmas alone because of jealousy of my mum, wanting to stir up trouble, but the insight into a nice warm house when she squatted at ours across different points in 2020 - 2021 and now wants this as entitled to it. Fuck her, frankly.

laughing on the bus as there is a toddler having a complete meltdown and her mum is employing toddler training as we do with Hag. Toddler is actually better behaved than Hag and has calmed down. 😂😂😂😂

Labourthepoint and mincespiesyum

Both of you have written that word guilt in your posts.

Determine why you feel guilty. Be sure you understand why you’re feeling guilty. What did you do wrong? Did you really do anything wrong? Avoid feeling guilty for things outside of your control like your mother. You are only responsible for your own self, not her in any way.

Once you forgive yourself, the guilt is gone. If you actually did something that warrants guilt, try putting yourself in the other person’s shoes. Imagine that the error you made happened to you. You’d probably forgive the other person without too much fuss. You should treat yourself at least as well! Notice how much easier it is for you to forgive someone else than it is to forgive yourself.
You should be the best friend you’ll ever have. Treat yourself like it.

At some point, you have to let it go and get on with your life. There’s no value in holding on to guilt. Guilty feelings suggest that you did something wrong and need to learn from it. Your mother continues to manipulate you even now as an adult; you need to see her manipulation for what it really is and release the guilt.
Allow yourself to move forward from your guilt.

Thanks for replying. My father was quite abusive. He was a very difficult man and she didn't have a happy marriage. I think she looks at me and thinks I have it easy. The argument last night started with her having a go at me about not being appreciative enough or supportive enough of my OH. She doesn't see the difficulties in my life or how I am struggling just how I am not interested enough in her , don't visit her enough, don't show enough interest in her life etc.

It was a very dysfunctional household. My siblings are much younger than me so were always treated as different whilst I was expected to get on with things and was largely ignored.

I do admit that I don't visit my mother enough and it's hard to show interest in her life, as it revolves entirely around her religion. She bangs on about family constantly, but she means her birth family. My sister was due to visit her recently (she only sees her once a year for about three days), but she preferred to spend the day attending a religious convention. Everything she says is just so hypocritical. I composed a long message last night refuting all her points on WhatsApp, but I know I am wasting my time.

Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat I suppose having a mother who is quite emotionally volatile and relies on her DC so much means that the guilt is constant. A lifetime of conditioning is hard to throw off.

For example, my DM went to spend 2 months in the sun this autumn and on previous occasions she did this I’ve visited by this time we couldn’t and she is so so angry and keeps saying to my DC ‘oh you will visit me next year’ I really don’t see why I should have to, it’s only 2 months and her choice to go away. She is not entitled to be guaranteed visits every year. In any case, we pay about a third of her accommodation costs so flights on top of this are a bit much

@Labourthepoint You are most definitely wasting your time responding. The relationship is toxic so I would try and minimise contact wherever you can

MonkeyfromManchester

Toddlers grow up thankfully.

MM's mother reminds me very much of an adult who remains emotionally stuck and otherwise stunted around the age of six. My MIL is not too dissimilar to a six year old in her ways of thinking because she's always pretending too.

This is from a great online resource:
"Having a narcissist for a mother is a lot like living under the supervision of a six-year-old. Narcissists are always pretending, and with a narcissistic mother it's a lot like, "Let's play house. I'll pretend to be the mother and you pretend to be the baby," though, as the baby, you'll be expected to act like a doll (keep smiling, no matter what) and you'll be treated like a doll -- as an inanimate object, as a toy to be manipulated, dressed and undressed, walked around and have words put in your mouth; something that can be broken but not hurt, something that will be dropped and forgotten when something more interesting comes along".

I would seriously not have the Hag over for Christmas Day even for the planned two hours either (getting her out of your home may prove to be interesting) but that may be a bridge too far currently for MM. MM though should tell his mother that she is not included in any other celebrations over the festive. He must not JADE his mother i.e justify, argue, defend or explain that decision further.

The Eviangate Incident my MIL pulled many years back was in itself the catalyst for me talking to DH about going abroad at Christmas; he readily agreed. And indeed we're doing the same this year too:).

Labourthepoint

re your comment
"My siblings are much younger than me so were always treated as different whilst I was expected to get on with things and was largely ignored".

I can certainly relate to that, my brother was and remains far more favoured by my mother in particular. He says jump and they say how high?. It is still the same now; am expected to get on with it by dint of fact that I am female. I do not visit my parents very much nowadays either also because I do not want to. I do not feel guilty about doing so mainly because to my mind they now reap what they sow.

Guilt is a truly useless emotion when it comes to toxic families and indeed the toxic parents installed that button in us.

Mincepiesyum

She's also volatile because of her alcoholism as well as her innate personality. I would drop the rope completely here before she has you further paying for her travel for the rest of your days. Paying a third of it is a third too much and is taking money away from your own family unit.

She making you all as her children her confidante for all her problems remains unforgiveable as well; you were but children at the time. Read about enmeshed families.

Look at your own boundaries here re your mother and raise them where necessary.

It's not your fault she is like this nor did you make her that way either. You cannot heal her pain; that is for her own self to do that and fact is she does not want to. She wants you people as her now adult children to do that and fact is you people cannot as you have all too clearly seen. It's not surprise your own children do not want much if anything to do with their grandmother because they also know what she is like.

@MonkeyfromManchester

If I say I am tired and just want time with him he will may get funny.

I really don't know even how to put it to him.

Otherwise I will end up saying I am working or just say I am ill.

I don't want to have an argument but think he will know I don't want to see her.

He is trying to force us together and right now it's not happening for me.

He might even put me on the stop saying she wants to see me.

I feel stuck

@AttilaTheMeerkat ha ha re toddler. You are so right. Her violent father died when she was six and she was left with a mawkish martyr of a mother who viewed her as a servant. I'm not sure she can even pretend to be a mother - Mr Monkey was never hungry but never remembers any love. Purely functional and transactional. She love bombs the grandsons, but never phones them. Nothing is real. We’re just servants. Well, we were.

MM has got so far and BRILLIANTLY but I think Xmas is a bridge too far, although he's not given into her blackmail this year and was disgusted by her behaviour last Xmas and was the one who first said ‘never again’. Huge leaps have been made. When she announced her intention yesterday to cancel the Carers for 3 days, which is de facto announcing her full intentions to gate crash my mum’s (AS IF), MM said ‘there's no need but that's your choice’. I was horrified at her manipulation ONCE AGAIN, but said to him ‘how will she manage?’, “she’ll manage”.

If she was mobile, I would have every belief that she would simply show up at my mum’s. It's like when she was coming here in autumn 2021 for THE day when her flat was being done and she turned up with her OVERNIGHT bag. Mr Monkey didn't notice 🤣 but I did. It was like the elephant in the room. In the corner. She would not believe it when we packed her off at 6pm after graciously feeding her.

Yep, I think it is going to be difficult to get her out on Xmas Day. Slave Son will be itching to go to the pub c6pm so that will be the point of bundling her into a taxi. There will be no ‘falling asleep’ on our sofa and staying the night. Last year, she went to bed on my mum’s sofa - she had her own room - at 7pm so we couldn't sit in the living room and chill the fuck out after the nightmare day. Our house is tiny so on a practical level that's not even an option. I will parcel up doggy bags of food and off they trot.

And I will be booking the Xmas meal for 2023 at the local pub on Boxing Day. I don't want her here ever again and I doubt her behaviour will be any kind of improvement on Xmas 2021.

I think, TBH, the more and more she needles us re Hotel Hag and the more and more we push back, she's likely to kick off and not come. We are being very clear that she's not invited to New Year at my mum’s. There is every likelihood of a sulk and drama like 2020. She took manipulation to new lengths in 2021 and cornered MM.

NOT THIS YEAR.

When I read this all back i am staggered as to her behaviour. It is incredible.

Can I come with you? I drink more than Evian and being a Gemini like you I am very good company.

🤣🤣🤣

Those of you who’ve gone very low contact with your parents/in-laws.’: what have you done when one of them dies?
my FIL is terminally ill. Since my DH had counselling a decade ago, we’ve managed a carefully planned meet up every 2/3 months in a neutral location between our houses. Never met for key dates (birthdays/Easter/Christmas). It’s worked well enough. Certainly the best we can hope for I think. Now FIL is dying and my DH is an only child. We both want to keep to the current arrangement but it feels trickier now MIL will be on their own.