November 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

This is the latest thread, please feel free to write as much or as little as you please.

Dysfunctional (toxic) people HATE boundaries. They see them as a challenge that has to be broken so that they can continue to demonstrate their perceived authority / superiority.

@Chipsandcheese123 - so sorry you're going through the mill and in such emotional pain. Please please seek help about the need to hurt yourself. Is there someone you can call - your GP or your counsellor? I'm sorry I have no experience of self-harm and so no useful advice to offer.

@Sicario I will see my counsellor next week. Am hoping it won't happen again. It's definitely the combo of past experience plus current stressors- just a bit much. Starting a journal seemed to trigger it unfortunately..... I have a few ideas to prevent if I feel the urge again as unfortunately the relief was amazing and obviously it's not a safe way to achieve that. I will have a really good read of this thread too as lots is familiar to me.

Has anyone got any insight on how to handle this situation?

Short version: DS (19) keeps expressing disappointment/sadness about his lack of meaningful relationship with her paternal grandparents, aunty and cousins. DH is still angry about the situation (IMO would benefit from counselling) so won't engage, so I'm left fielding the questions.

I sense that DS is thinking we're at fault more than 50% (especially DH) as he has very little idea about the background. We've shielded him from it. He views his grandparents as lovely and good grandparents because of how they were with him when he was younger (they never asked to see him - these were all occasions that we organised or someone else did). We've had an obviously much reduced relationship with them over the last 6+ years as I stopped organising things and DH effectively went LC. I don't want to tell DS all the issues but at the same time I feel like screaming at the unfairness of it all and I do feel sad that DS effectively has no wider family at all (no GP or cousins for him on my side).

Longer version (but still doesn't really explain it...)

I've been on this thread now and again under different usernames for years now, at different phases of this journey. My family effectively consists of my one brother (who is great) who lives a few hours away and has no children. Parents are dead - mum dying when I was a young child and dad (who is stately home worthy but that isn't the issue here) died a long time ago too, so effectively no GP or cousins on my side of the family for DS.

The problem is our relationship with DH's side of the family and DS (only child). This is a story of many anecdotes and without going into those...DH has a very strained relationship with his parents. They present as 'lovely' but (and it took me a while to fully see this and if I'm honest I thought the problem was mainly DH in the early days) they're not. I would say classic covert narcissists who do the golden child/scapegoat thing - definitely sibling triangulation and did everything in their power (sometimes utterly bizarrely) to stop DH and his sister (who is like them but more obvious) meeting up without them. DH no longer wants to meet his sister so this isn't an issue. They've badmouthed her to us so much and I suspect they do exactly the same about us to her. Absolutely cannot cope with any kind of boundaries in an emotionally mature way. Passive aggressive...I know I'm not describing this well.

Anyway, for several years now we've been relatively peaceful. They did something that showed they were prepared to hurt DS for a bit of drama and this was the turning point. We just stopped organising things and only see them for max 45 mins every few months - very superficial. Haven't seem SIL or her family for years. DH and I avoid mentioning them most of the time. DH still clearly as deep wounds though. He as started saying he doesn't like them at all and most recently he revealed a few things about growing up (his mum's temper and mega screaming sessions at both him and the wider family - this is a woman who I've never heard raise her voice in 20 years but I totally believe this) and has described his mum as 'evil'.

So DS thinks these people are their lovely mask and we're the 'difficult' ones who have denied him a wider family I suspect. I don't think that DH and I handled this as well as we could've - by a long way - but I'm also at a loss to see how it could've possibly had a different outcome.

Actually, not sure there really is a solution to this - it's just another chapter in the messed up story. It has been good to get it down in writing though.

Hello. Daughter of a covert narc mum here - and one of the hardest things is how she presents to almost everyone else (even family) except me.

I have two daughters - 14 and 12 - who I don't involve in this but they have picked up that something is afoot. They don't mention my mum and don't seem to miss her - tbh she puts them on edge with her expectations and sensitivity - and I'm not setting up situations for her to see them any more. At their age, both with phones etc, if she wanted to see them she could.

I think at your son's age some honesty might be needed. He could make contact himself if he wanted but you'd need to be careful of him getting sucked in. Hard one but I think as an adult he might need to find out for himself what they're really like...

Shielding him as you have done, whilst completely understandable, may have also served to make him more curious about that side of the family because its never been discussed openly if at all why you do not see them apart from some rare visit.

Talking of that I'd also cut that occasional 45 minute visit out altogether. Its not possible to have a relationship with people that disordered of thinking. Such people like his parents never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from people whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow.

Your DH needs to engage with counselling re his family of origin; is he open to this?. At the very least he should be reading around the subject of narcissistic family structures and the harms they do.

@AttilaTheMeerkat These types of parents to my mind are NEVER ever well meaning. They had a choice when it came to you and they chose to dole out similar as to what was done to them by their parents. They never apologise not accept any responsibility for their actions.

I 100% agree with your post. Both my parents are narcissists, both had pretty crappy parents themselves but that's just not an excuse in my book. They made the conscious decision to throw my and my two brother's childhoods under the bus, no one forced/made them. This is probably the issue that is giving me the most anger in the last 5 years, since I've been receiving treatment for C-PTSD.

My mother is 81, I'm still trying to get what I feel is a genuine apology from her for what happened...by genuine, I mean one where she takes full personal responsibility for what happened - doesn't try and blame it all on my father, doesn't utter the word 'but' at all...but I know I've got more chance of going to Mars than that happening. Trying to come to terms with that is hard.

Thank you @Legomum78 and @AttilaTheMeerkat .

Yes, to everything you've said. It makes so much sense - it has really helped seeing it written out to me like that.

Thank you for taking the time to help me like that.

I've had counselling (it was instrumental in me dropping lots of ropes with PIL and realising that, yes, it was messed up) - I thought it was to help me heal from my own childhood but I ended up discussing the issues with PIL/DH with the counsellor more. DH would sometimes say - tell her about x and see what she thinks? I think he has learnt about dysfunctional families and the patterns through my counselling/reading. I've suggested counselling to him many times. Resistant. I don't think he thinks it will help or often that he even has a problem... I'm going to pick my moment and bring it up again (he is very stressed/down about work at the moment so...).

I've said to DS on many occasions that he can go and see PIL if he wants to (they live within walking distance) or contact them but he doesn't. He is friends with his cousins on social media but has very little interaction.

I'm going to take your advice on making more effort with wider family. My brother lives in my hometown which is also where my pseudo family lives (the family that effectively took me in as a child and I still have a strong relationship with now) and in recent years DS hasn't been coming with me on visits (which aren't frequent enough). I'm going to make the effort to make these visits more frequently and encourage DS to come. I think he will want to again now the intense teenage years have passed. Also, do more fun things together - guilty of getting out of the habit of doing that.

In time I'll be increasingly more honest with him. It wasn't the right time yesterday I don't think, as he has just split up with his long-term GF and feeling fragile, I told him a couple of things though. I didn't want to tell him that he grandparents aren't actually very nice and we felt he needed protecting from them. I also don't feel like it is entirely my story to tell - it is really DHs.

I told DH about our conversation this morning - he didn't really say anything at all and then changed the subject to his latest work frustration (he is working from home today, I've got he day off)...I think it is down to me. I'm going to have to find out from DH exactly what he boundaries are in how much I can share, clearly that wasn't going to happen today though...

These past few days I have come to the realisation that my father has thrown me under the bus all my life. My mother is the family top dog and my father has always enabled her - I have known this for a long time. After a recent fallout it became clear to me that he has always stood by her, no matter if right or wrong, he always put her first. He always supported her in fallouts either actively or passively by not stepping up for the truth.

For many years this was confusing to me. As a child, he would sometimes give me glimpses of the support and love I wanted. We would have small secrets, mainly of me doing ok things which we knew my mother would hate and made our live miserable for. He was also suffering under her regime, which in my young mind meant I was in the same boat as him, and we therefore had a connection and mutual understanding. He would also be an OK dad when she was out, confusing me even further.

It took until now for me to see he never was and never will be on my side. He was and is weak. He never put me first. He just tried to calm his own conscience but never had the intention to give me the best and healthy childhood possible. This drags into adulthood. He has no idea of who he is and what he even wants, because all he does is try and follow his wife, pre-empt her needs and desires so she won't hit the roof, walking on eggshells all the time.

He is now trying to lure me back in. To just forget about the fallout. To resume 'normal' contact without any changes in behaviour. I know this because they need therapy and they have never even considered it.

My friend and I often talk about our dysfunctional families. We both had therapy etc.

There is something she says that irks me. She'd say that our parents' generation did not have access to the same resources we have today, meaning social media, internet etc. to research and talk about mental health. Meaning that they had it more difficult than us to see through the fog and trauma our grandparents caused.

I hate this and I don't know if I am being unreasonable for this or not. I feel like I have had to work so HARD for 20+ years to heal as much as I have healed, whilst they have done nothing. Also, they have access to the same resources as I have, the only difference is that it's come at a later age for them, and they still don't use the resources because in their mind they are normal people.

I feel exactly as you do about your mother. Mine won’t take responsibility for her actions either. Jus t blames my father or her own childhood. It’s just never going to happen.

Bloody hell, I could literally have wrote this word for word myself about my own situation!

My dad is exact same, he even accuses me of being at fault because 'I rise to the bait' when my mum starts

I've pondered similar @Twatalert .

I'm very grateful that the resources have been increasingly readily available to me as an adult. That there is terminology to explain behaviours that are fairly widely understood and a general openness now to discuss issues of this nature. Doesn't make the journey easy - the 'work' still takes a lot of time, tears and well...work.

As you've said - they've had the resources available to them too (but at an older age) and done nothing with them. They don't even recognise their dysfunction. This is one of DH's many gripes - that his parents think they're 'perfect' and have no work to do but at the same time communicate in a manipulative and passive aggressive manner. They think it is normal. They hear each other lie to protect their image and agenda and still don't think this dysfunctional. The closest he has ever got to an apology or any kind of recognition is 'we got it wrong with you'.

They've clearly picked up on some things though. They went through a phase of over-using the phrase 'that won't work for us' and fully expecting this to mean that they could get exactly what they wanted when they wanted it with zero consideration for what may or may not work for other people. It was usually when they were asking for a favour from someone else e.g. fix something for them but they wanted you to do it NOW not when it was convenient or even possible...I guess it was mildly amusing at times.

Whilst it may not feel like it I think we are lucky because we have the ability to use the resources and support and do the work when they just haven't been able to, maybe they are just too far gone.

An Enabling Father is one who panders to the Narcissistic Mother, who facilitates her abuse of the children, who worships completely at her altar and expects the children to do so too. Or perhaps he does not worship as much as fears her; but the result is the same: he is her sidekick, making sure that she is kept happy no matter the cost to his children.

He can act as her hatchet man, being the one who defends her viciously, portraying his own version of Narcissistic Rage. He’s her front-line defence. The result is that the children in such families have no adult to protect them. His need to feel that he’d chosen a good wife was more important than protecting his children.

It also shows that he needed to believe his wife was perfect, or near it, to feel he had chosen a good wife. And so they were both caught in this dance of believing her perfect and doing all necessary to preserve that illusion.

@Experiment3 It is nice to know someone has similar thoughts. This healing journey is quite lonely at times.

It is not that I was handed information and resources. I was suffering and I wanted to end that and there really only were two options, and getting therapy etc. was the first option. So, I made a conscious choice to work on myself using what is available to me. They never made that choice.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Your insight is useful as always.

I have know forever that my mother is sick in the head, but only recently accepted she is a covert narcissist. Of course she hasn't been diagnosed, but I somehow needed to call it something to come to terms with it and to fully accept that she will never love me. It has been an important step. She really ticks all the boxes.

@Labourthepoint @Frazzledmummy123 I hear you!

@Twatalert The most healing thing I've ever found is to be completely NC. That came for me when my father died (so NC guilt free) - I didn't fully realise until a couple of years afterwards that it was the turning point.

Pity I still have this ongoing issue with PIL/DH/DS though...it is so draining...DS's mental health and our relationship with him is at stake though so time to double up on my efforts. I've definitely got a tendency to wallow in the unfairness of it all...I know that doesn't help anyone though, least of all me. I spend most of my precious day off now with this on my mind. I dread to think how many hundred's of hours I've wasted in this way and a clear sign I've still got work to do I guess.

@Experiment3 Again, I hear you. Wallowing in the unfairness of it all - you just described it perfectly for me. It is unfair and I get no pad on the back because I have done so well in my healing journey. Yes, a sign more work is needed because who are we doing it for if not ourselves?

It annoys me that my parents think they are so perfect and will go into their grave with that feeling. Part of me wants them to wake up and get that reality check - you know these moments when you realise how bad it all was and how much you missed out on? When some new insight is sinking in and you have to come to terms with the reality? I guess I hate that in their mind it is still me who is the problem.

My dad is very ill, sooner rather than later we think.
After bobbing along low contact I'm now having to be in touch more often, given a bit more info away.
I had the one on one visit to the hospital bed, nothing particularly note worthy emotionally, only 'how did you get your job' when I showed him a picture of a particularly awesome company project.
I'm sad I didn't get better parents but it's not ruined my life. He gave a terrible, speech at my wedding, 20 years ago, a putting me down but we'll always love you thing. I feel quite strongly I won't say anything at his funeral but my mum is already hinting and has almost moved straight into loving widow territory, she will want the past thoroughly carpeted over.

Hugs to everyone. I’ll be replying and supporting tomorrow. Just need a rant about my fucking vile MIL.

The Hag.

So, Mr Monkey implemented the do not ring me at work rule with the toxic bitch a month or so ago. As I predicted, she has returned to form - no one is allowed to have any boundaries or to be respected on Planet Hag - and has started to ring him seven to ten times a day. Again.

Yesterday was a complete shit show with a ton of calls during the day when he was working on a significant event for the charity he works for. Later, as he was travelling home on the bus, she phoned him screaming about the fact her medicines (sadly, not including rat poison) were delivered a day early and posted through her letterbox. No, I can't see the issue with that either.

He told her that she can’t speak to him this way. Mr Monkey then made a mistake with GDPR when he picked up something urgent when he got home, which isn't great in a charity that works with vulnerable people. He was in a right state so I had to calm him down. He was so anxious about it all.

We agreed again that he is not to pick up calls from her at work. His brother Slave Son - retired - can deal with the minutiae that her calls involve e.g. What dates are on her ready meals and other such ‘emergencies’. The calls always descend into nastiness from her.

She phoned TEN times again today when he was working at home, which he ignored. As she wasn't getting an answer she phoned Slave Son to ring Mr Monkey. And Slave Son did, FFS. MM told him about the mistake.

MM rang the Hag when he finished work at 4pm. Cue more screaming and him calmly reiterating when she can ring (emergency) and trivial BS needs to be directed to Slave Son. MM told him about the mistake “I suppose that’s my fault”. Well, yes, it’s hard to stay calm and focused when you’ve just endured spiteful screaming from an 86 year old bag of spleen.

Cue martyr shit “you don’t want to phone me anymore” and then as that didn’t work, she delivered what she thinks is the killer blow of “I don’t think I’ll come to that family meal on Easter Monday” I’m not going as I will stab her through the head with my soup spoon.

She honestly thinks that depriving us of her (vile) company will upset Mr Monkey terribly. He’s so much better, despite the years of abuse, at blocking the utter shit from her as he replied with a cool “that’s your choice”. He’s not going to beg her to come or bring it up again.

He’s going back to counselling in April as her behaviour has really worn him down again. Can fellow stately home ladies have a whip round to send the bitch to the other side of the world? I will be eternally grateful.

100%

hope you're ok @SpringPortWine
I went through similar with my mum last year. We'd been low contact for a few years (phone calls every few weeks, visits 3/4 times a year) but had to visit more when she was in hospital
I'd been dreading her dying, fearing the emotions it would bring up, but actually it was ok - almost liberating (I know I can say that here without being judged) I had a real moment of clarity, realising she wasn't in charge anymore.
the last few days she wasn't really conscious or responding, and I was not n hospital then for my brothers, not for her. I'm not that close with my brothers, but they're not bad people and as the eldest I felt I had to be there
like you my initial reaction was I wouldn't speak at her funeral, but I read a poem, which I felt didn't misrepresent things and I think that helped with a sense of closure

An update for me, I’ve been watching and rooting you all on.

if you remember us-
2021 was the year of hell for us, relocating 300 miles as a single parent enduring a court case (to move away from abusive ex to do so) - you might remember parents wanted to buy me a house except it wasn’t my house, one they chose and then they said I had to give them my salary and they would give me money out of it for me and the children to do ‘activities’ they thought were suitable.
My hair fell out they were abusive waking me up at 5 am before a day of work constantly telling me to shut up in front of the children, praise and cuddles for eldest but abusive to youngest.

So here I am 2 years of counselling later. I live in a nice rented house near them. They stopped talking to us when we left and went to live with friends. They refused to speak to us and refused to return all our things. 2 years later we have 90% of everything back but of course they kept various things. We were told not to speak to them directly and go through my abusive brother, but they contacted us directly. Initially it was they had received this letter or that letter. They had my work address and their next door neighbour works with me but they wanted my address and I wouldn’t give it to them.

They turned up at work to ‘give me a letter’ it was a gardeners world magazine - work didn’t let them in. The security person just took it and said ok fine I’ll give it to her.

My father followed the children home down a snicket (didn’t meet them at the school gates or contact me to arrange) and tried to give them money and sweets and told them not to phone me or tell me - they rang me immediately and he ran away (!) I drove to them they put all the sweets and money in an envelope and I posted it through the door and sent them a text saying that it wasn’t normal / if they wanted to see us ring

then silence

no contact from them birthdays, Christmas etc I mean what the hell? Literally black out time.

In October 2022 we went around with eldest as she wanted to ask them direct why they had ignored her for 18 months and why didn’t she exist anymore - ? they live 5 minutes away and rang the door - mother was crying and wanted us to come in for a cup of tea. I said no, we just wanted if they wanted to meet for a coffee (youngest didn’t come) my father said he would think about it. I said their house wasn’t appropriate and it was better to be neutral.

2 days later they contacted us and said yes they would meet for a coffee. It was bizarre. We met them, father was a shadow of himself and no longer a short shouty bully who could make me aged nearly 50 wet myself, he was just a pathetic little man. Daughter spoke to my mum and my mum cried and said she missed her and had a sad boring life. My father wanted her to hug and kiss her and she said she wasn’t wanting to do that as they had ignored her for 2 years. He then criticised all her a level choices and she calmly explained why he was wrong on all counts and that she had a supportive family (me) and could do whatever a levels she chose. She told them how happy she was and loved her dogs and her home and friends. My Dad then tried to criticise me and said something like ‘I suppose you are still thinking you know best and better than me?’ And I said well I’m an intelligent adult woman who has been through hell and two years of counselling and now I know myself and authentic me and I’m not just doing a full time career, I’m parent to two children as a single parent rather than two and running a house on one income rather than two - so yes, I work twice as hard, with half the support and I’m doing a fab job. Counselling has helped me identify negative influences and other people’s issues projected on me and I’m no longer able to have that in my life - I’ve dealt with it and moved on. I manage my life.

It was a bizarre and surreal meeting.

He tried various tactics such as walking next to her (daughter) and offering her money etc and she just looked at him and said ‘no. I’m two years older - I don’t want money. Either you want a personal relationship or you don’t’ he was playing the I love you, I can buy you anything you want if you are on my side line and she turned around and said - it’s so much better to earn it yourself isn’t it and that’s what I love about my mum - she doesn’t rely on anyone else. She doesn’t want or expect anything from anyone else, she gives with no expectation of a return.

we left after a cup of tea at a local cafe - no hugs or contact and then he looked pretty cross and said to my daughter ‘aren’t you going to hug your lovely grandpa?’ And she said - err no not this time. You haven’t contacted me for two years and you need to get to know me. We have always been open to a relationship but an equal one.

we sent Christmas cards and presents and heard nothing - we dropped them around.

2023 this time exactly 2 years ago pretty much we fled at 6am after they had woken me up at 4/5 am and literally abused me for an hour or more screaming at me etc and I turned around a calmly and said ‘I’m done. You are screaming at me daily I can’t live here anymore. I don’t want you to buy me a house, I never asked you to, we can’t do this’ 4 bathrooms in the house and we had to state when we would be using them etc

I’ve undone all my defence of them, for example, for about 5 years as a child they forgot my birthday - long forgotten stuff, years of being told I’m stupid, (3degrees would say otherwise) a slut (I was a virgin until I was 22!) the counselling will never unlock it all / it’s too buried down but it has done enough in terms of saying ‘it wasn’t me’

it will always be a sadness that I don’t have parents that love me, I can’t make them, I can’t change my love and empathy to want them too - that’s normal, but I can have a different life.

by radio silence they give me rejection

but I finally accept myself. I still have wobbles. I still want loving parents. But like most narcissists my father can’t do boundaries he just can’t. And I want my daughter to have boundaries and I want to keep boundaries.

sorry to bulldoze on the thread. It has given me much support over the last two years.

these people cause so much distress and hurt eg the hag

no contact for me, they insist on it, not me, but they can’t deal with my boundaries

one comment struck me when we met them last
it was over the A level comments when my mum asked my daughter what she had chosen and she said her chosen subjects
my father said - no that’s a waste, one of those is a crap choice and a pathetic subject and she turned around and went
‘firstly if I want to do medicine with them I can. But my mum says to cover any potential university requirement and then do what I want’ and if I ask my mum for advice she is neutral and tries not to project her own feelings on it.

that to me meant everything - hopefully a step forward

it’s not perfect the children are dire with arguing etc at times and I am struggling up trust and make friends. It’s difficult to answer - do you have family local and explain why - they choice

but ultimately as my counsellor says they want the sobbing mess so they can show me exactly how to organise my life etc and now I’m not that - they can’t do a walk and feed the ducks or a nice coffee.

my parents have no friends and no family. Rarely see my siblings, don’t see us.
my Mother spends 7 hours a day playing games on her tablet and my father hours watching a place in the country.

but this is their choice.

You are a legend 🙌
Fucking well done 👏

Hello @IAAP and bloody good on you. Your parents are a nightmare and you sound stronger than ever. It's no wonder they have no friends (and no life), and they put you through hell. Filled with admiration for you and hoping you go from strength to strength.